Mind Projection Fallacy

Reductionism 101

Followup toHow an Algorithm Feels From Inside

Monsterwithgirl_2In the dawn days of science fiction, alien invaders would occasionally kidnap a girl in a torn dress and carry her off for intended ravishing, as lovingly depicted on many ancient magazine covers.  Oddly enough, the aliens never go after men in torn shirts.

Would a non-humanoid alien, with a different evolutionary history and evolutionary psychology, sexually desire a human female?  It seems rather unlikely.  To put it mildly.

People don't make mistakes like that by deliberately reasoning:  "All possible minds are likely to be wired pretty much the same way, therefore a bug-eyed monster will find human females attractive."  Probably the artist did not even think to ask whether an alien perceives human females as attractive.  Instead, a human female in a torn dress is sexy—inherently so, as an intrinsic property.

They who went astray did not think about the alien's evolutionary history; they focused on the woman's torn dress.  If the dress were not torn, the woman would be less sexy; the alien monster doesn't enter into it.

Apparently we instinctively represent Sexiness as a direct attribute of the Woman object, Woman.sexiness, like Woman.height or Woman.weight.

If your brain uses that data structure, or something metaphorically similar to it, then from the inside it feels like sexiness is an inherent property of the woman, not a property of the alien looking at the woman.  Since the woman is attractive, the alien monster will be attracted to her—isn't that logical?

E. T. Jaynes used the term Mind Projection Fallacy to denote the error of projecting your own mind's properties into the external world.  Jaynes, as a late grand master of the Bayesian Conspiracy, was most concerned with the mistreatment of probabilities as inherent properties of objects, rather than states of partial knowledge in some particular mind.  More about this shortly.

But the Mind Projection Fallacy generalizes as an error.  It is in the argument over the real meaning of the word sound, and in the magazine cover of the monster carrying off a woman in the torn dress, and Kant's declaration that space by its very nature is flat, and Hume's definition of a priori ideas as those "discoverable by the mere operation of thought, without dependence on what is anywhere existent in the universe"...

(Incidentally, I once read an SF story about a human male who entered into a sexual relationship with a sentient alien plant of appropriately squishy fronds; discovered that it was an androecious (male) plant; agonized about this for a bit; and finally decided that it didn't really matter at that point.  And in Foglio and Pollotta's Illegal Aliens, the humans land on a planet inhabited by sentient insects, and see a movie advertisement showing a human carrying off a bug in a delicate chiffon dress.  Just thought I'd mention that.)

 

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It's not about what the bug-eyed monster considers sexy. It's about what the human reader considers sexy.

Exactly. I never conceived of the alien taking the woman because she was attractive. Weaker perhaps, but not because he found her sexy. Damsel in distress. I think it is your, author of this article, who suffered from mind projection fallacy, not necessarily the creators of the comic or the rest of the audience. To me, from the point of view of the story, it was just a tragic accident that the woman being hauled off was one I found beautiful.

Precisely.

If a bunch of aliens were to start capturing bunch of humans (and other terrestrial animals) for food, or slave labour, or what ever, it would be rational for males to go after the aliens with sexy human females first. The torn clothing would likely be widespread, and selection by torn clothing (as torn clothing improves ability to select for sexiness) may also be rational when one wants to maximize the sexiness of mates that one takes for rebuilding the human race. :-)

edit: One should also look for signs of struggle (such as torn clothing), as one would be interested in the relevant genes for the successful counter-attack by the next generation.

The aliens and monsters are stand-ins for the traditional fear: men from the other tribe. Since cross-tribal homicide and rape/abduction are quite common, it is no surprise that our Sci-Fi creations do the same thing.

Yeah, I can't help but think that in many cases there is no implied inference that the alien especially desires the woman, but rather that the reader is especially affected by the fact that the abductee just happens to be an attractive woman. (King Kong would be an exception.) It's the same reason that we rarely if ever see the alien carrying a cow instead; not because of its preferences, but because we wouldn't be especially apprehensive about the cow's fate.

If there's a bias here, it's one generated by the desire to tell interesting stories. Projection happens, but I don't find this example terribly compelling.

Optical illusions might be a good example of this. Ex. http://www.buzzfeed.com/catesish/help-am-i-going-insane-its-definitely-blue#.hfZoPkgjK

People are freaking out over what color the dress "really is". They're projecting the property of "true color" onto the real world, when in reality "true color" is only in their mind.

The way I think about it:

dress.trueColor = undefined;
dress.reflectedWavelength = someNumber;
dress.interpretedColor = function(reflectedWavelength, observer, context, lighting...) {}

Oh, dear Lord, this made it even to LW... X-/

Human language isn't great for talking about colors. The word "blue", for example, encompasses very different hues.

Let's think about this in terms of the HSV (hue, saturation, value) model.

In this model, whitish colors have low saturation, high value (value is basically brightness), and the hue doesn't matter. Similarly, blackish colors have high saturation, low value, and the hue doesn't matter again.

The dress in this image has the blue hue, but high value (=brightness). That makes it light blue or bluish white -- take your pick. The other color has the orange hue, but low value. That makes it dark brown (gold) or brownish black, again, take your pick.

Overlay on top of this the differences in uncalibrated monitors, personal idiosyncrasies, and some optical illusion effects, and you have a ridiculously successfull buzzfeed post :-D

People are freaking out over what color the dress "really is".

Are they, actually? Or are they freaking out over what other people say it is?

If I saw only the text of the supposed controversy I would instantly diagnose it as a hoax for clickbait. There are colour constancy illusions, but I will not believe that this is one of them until I see two people actually taking opposite sides. However, that is socially impossible to achieve, because there will always be enough people to perversely take the opposite side for the lulz. The wording of the original Tumblr post, and the buzzfeed and Wired articles, deliberately encourage this.

What colours do you see in the dress in this picture? Not in any other picture, or the real dress, but this, the original picture that started it all. Feel free to experiment with different monitors and ambient lighting (but not editing the picture) and to give details in comments.

[pollid:831]

If I saw only the text of the supposed controversy I would instantly diagnose it as a hoax for clickbait. There are colour constancy illusions, but I will not believe that this is one of them until I see two people actually taking opposite sides.

My introduction to this illusion was walking into the office yesterday morning, and having a co-worker show me the picture on their monitor while asking what colour the dress was. The office split fairly evenly between white & gold versus blue & black, and nobody seemed to be kidding/trolling.

The weird specificity of a couple of people's experiences also suggested they were being serious. One person who originally saw white & gold, after skimming blog posts discussing/explaining the illusion, eventually said they could kiiiinda see how it could be seen as blue & black (but that could've been a social conformity effect). Another person saw the dress as white & gold on their computer screen, but saw it as visibly blue & black when viewing their screen's image through someone's smartphone, which presented it with lower brightness.

So I deem this legit. I think this illusion messes with people so successfully by turning the relatively well-known brightness/saturation illusion (as in the checker shadow illusion) into a colour illusion, by exploiting the facts that (1) very light blue looks white, (2) brown looks like yellow/gold or black depending on intensity, and (3) perceived intensity depends on the surroundings as well as the region of focus.

I see sky blue and bronze-ish brown, which I'd interpret as navy blue and black decolored by aggressive washing. I still voted "blue and black" as I'd still call clothes that color black in real life unless I'm being pedantic, and there's no way I'd call them gold.

I think it has more to do with the fact that optical illusions are generally human universals, i.e. all humans see the same thing. (Certain illusions may be susceptible to cultural influence, but I don't think that really applies here--Buzzfeed commenters are all generally from similar demographics.) Given this, it's really weird that some people are seeing one thing and other people are seeing something else.

Case in point: I see it as white-and-gold, and I've looked over it several times already, with no change. I am actually having difficulty imagining how anyone could perceive it as blue-and-black, despite being fairly certain that the people their claiming to see blue-and-black are not lying. What's strange isn't the illusion itself, but the extremely polarizing effect it has on people.

I definitely agree - it's a particularly curious illusion. Some researcher seems to think so as well.

“But I’ve studied individual differences in color vision for 30 years, and this is one of the biggest individual differences I’ve ever seen.”

But the point remains that it can be explained by understanding the illusion, and that projecting "true color" onto the real world is a mistake.

Yes, I agree that projecting "true color" onto the real world is a mistake. I'm not sure those commenters are actually doing that, though. I think your interpretation of the Buzzfeed argument is something like this:

"It's white-and-gold!"

"No, it's blue-and-black! How can you think it's white-and-gold?!"

Whereas my interpretation, I feel, is slightly more charitable:

"I see white-and-gold!"

"No way, I see blue-and-black! Why are you seeing something different from what I'm seeing?"

In other words, I feel that the dicussion isn't quite as full of fallacious reasoning as you seem to be making it out to be (in that it could interpreted in a different way that makes it about something other than the mind projection fallacy). Of course, I could be wrong. What do you think?

I actually trust your interpretation over mine. I haven't read through it too carefully and sense that my frustration has interfered with my interpretation a bit.

In fairness, they're mostly kidding and exaggerating.

and Kant's declaration that space by its very nature is flat

This is an inappropriate accusation to make about Kant in particular: he was explicit that space (in all its flatness) was a necessary condition of experience, not a feature of the world. He could not be more adamant that his claims about space were claims about the mind, and the world as it appears to the mind.

He was wrong, of course: non-euclidian geometry thrives. But this isn't the mind projection fallacy. This is the exact opposite of the mind projection fallacy.

I know these sequence posts are old, but I'm finding a non-trivial number of these incorrect off-hand remarks, especially about philosophers. These errors are never really a problem for the main argument of the sequence, but there's no good in leaving a bunch of epistemically careless claims in a series of essays about how not to be epistemically careless. A quick SEP lookup, or a quick deletion, suffices to fix stuff like this.

I take your point about the mind projection fallacy, but actually in the particulars I may have to slightly disagree.

Consider these themes:

Furries Anime tentacle rape Bestiality/zoophilia etc etc etc...

In other words, we already know that there can be humans that find stuff either slightly human but modified, or increasingly alien to also, ahem. "tweak" them.

I bet somewhere either the author of that story (with the plant) that you mentioned, or some reader somewhere found that story particularly enjoyable, or at least the notion of it.

So, it does seem reasonable to suppose that some alien species would contain some mambers that have sufficiently different or broad or... creative... sexuality that they'd even find the scandalous notion of being attracted to a human, well, attractive.

Clearly then the Bug Eyed Monsters coming after the ladies in torn dresses are simply the deviants of that species. They're self selected! (okay, was being somewhat silly throughout this entire comment, such happens when I am on lack of sleep...)

Benquo: Wait... what about Chupucabra? Clearly simply a very confused alien that's simply trying to find a mate! chuckles

Actually wanting to bang Anything That Moves is common enough: alien perverts are just over-represented in fiction, because it's more terrifying for us humans.

I for one thought the plant story was a definite turn-on...

I just thought the Less Wrong community should know that a few minute ago, I was having trouble remembering the name of this fallacy, but I vaugely remembered the content of this post. So, I decided to use the search engine on this site to find this. I typed in "sexy," and this is the first thing that came up.

I can only imagine how many people have scrolled up to the search bar to test this since this comment was written.

I know this is incidental, but I am dying of curiosity about the story of the Plant-Guy/Human-Guy... would you mind giving the reference ?

It's certainly not just sci-fi writers who go for this sort of reasoning. I knew a theology professor who would make mistakes like this on a consistent basis. For example, he would raise questions about whether there was an evolutionary pressure for babies to evolve to be cute, without even considering the possibility that we might evolve to find babies cute. It struck me as being much worse than the sort of unthinking assumption that goes into Attack of the Fifty Foot Whatever sci fi stories, since his preconceptions were actually hindering him in fairly serious attempts to understand the real world.

There may also be evolutionary pressure for babies to evolve to be cute.

There's certainly evolutionary pressure for males to be sexy. Some species have pretty bizarre looking males.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a general problem. And you're right, the observer is not some guy speaking from some immutable "neutral point of view" but it's an error made very commonly by certain "scientists" every day. His error was not one of theology, but one commonly made by "evolutionary psychologists". But let's consider this case: if evolution has free dibs on everything, and it lacks any teleological component whatsoever, then what are we to say about your status as a rational being?

First, welcome to Lesswrong! If you'd like to introduce yourself, the 2010 thread is still active.

You've asked some interesting questions on this thread--unfortunately, Desertopa is the only one of your potential interlocutors I know to be active on this site. Even Desertopa may be reluctant to respond because your tone ("In case you haven't noticed") could be construed as combative, and we try to avoid that because emotionally identifying with one side of an argument leads to biases.

Regarding your question in the last sentence: there are a few posts addressing the rationality of intelligences generated by a blind idiot god on LW: The Lens That Sees its Flaws is one of my favorites.

Speaking of interspecies vs intraspecies reproductive fitness evaluation - a human may judge a member of its own species (from a distant end of the genetic spectrum, i.e., whitest of the white vs. blackest of the black) less desirable than some hypothetical alien species with appropriately bulbous forms and necessary orifices or extrusions.

Psy-Kosh,

We share an evolutionary history with different animals on earth. There could be attractive properties in animals that give us a similar representation of sexiness as they do to their own species. Same reason we find you will find different creatures finding other creatures cute e.g. humans to dogs and gorilla to human.

Additionally, there has been cases where dolphins attempted to sexually engage with humans. An intelligent alien will have a shared ancestry and therefore will not have sexiness representations from "sexual properties" exhibited in earth's creatures.

That's a rather weak explanation because you're implying the presence of causes without elucidating them, or you're creating a cause out of evolution, which is not a cause.

From the standpoint of being, we apprehend the accidental properties of a thing first, but from the point of view of the intellect, we apprehend "gorillaness" first, so in the context of gorillaness, sexiness is impossible in relation to human. One cannot find a gorilla sexy unless one is confused in some way. This is why zoophilia is a mental disorder.

You can find something about a gorilla beautiful, certainly, but this is not the same as sexy.

I once read an SF story about a human male who entered into a sexual relationship with a sentient alien plant of appropriately squishy fronds; discovered that it was an androecious (male) plant; agonized about this for a bit; and finally decided that it didn't really matter at that point.

...what was the name of that story?

I don't know what document that link originally pointed to, but this document contains one of Jaynes's earliest (if not the earliest) descriptions of the idea.

"E. T. Jaynes used the term Mind Projection Fallacy to denote the error of projecting your own mind's properties into the external world."

URL is dead for me: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.40.8618 says "This url does not match any document in our repository."

"Hard AI Future Salon" lecture, good talk. Most of the audience's questions however were very poor.

One more comment about the mind projection fallacy. Eliezer, you also have to keep in mind that the goal of a sci-fi writer is to make a compelling story which he can sell. Realism is only important in so far as it helps him achieve this goal. Agreed on the point that it's a fallacy, but don't expect it to change unless the audience demands/expects realism. http://tvtropes.org/ if full of tropes that illustrate stuff like that.

I'm sure the historians of the recent "Imagining Outer Space, 1900-2000" conference would have a good time with analyzing the various pop cultural strands that came together to produce rote images such as the above cover.

There is of course, the Red Dwarf episode "Camille" with the alien who appears as the projection of whatever you find sexiest.