Is That Your True Rejection?

Against Rationalization

It happens every now and then, that the one encounters some of my transhumanist-side beliefs—as opposed to my ideas having to do with human rationality—strange, exotic-sounding ideas like superintelligence and Friendly AI.  And the one rejects them.

If the one is called upon to explain the rejection, not uncommonly the one says,

"Why should I believe anything Yudkowsky says?  He doesn't have a PhD!"

And occasionally someone else, hearing, says, "Oh, you should get a PhD, so that people will listen to you."  Or this advice may even be offered by the same one who disbelieved, saying, "Come back when you have a PhD."

Now there are good and bad reasons to get a PhD, but this is one of the bad ones.

There's many reasons why someone actually has an adverse reaction to transhumanist theses.  Most are matters of pattern recognition, rather than verbal thought: the thesis matches against "strange weird idea" or "science fiction" or "end-of-the-world cult" or "overenthusiastic youth".

So immediately, at the speed of perception, the idea is rejected.  If, afterward, someone says "Why not?", this lanches a search for justification.  But this search will not necessarily hit on the true reason—by "true reason" I mean not the best reason that could be offered, but rather, whichever causes were decisive as a matter of historical fact, at the very first moment the rejection occurred.

Instead, the search for justification hits on the justifying-sounding fact, "This speaker does not have a PhD."

But I also don't have a PhD when I talk about human rationality, so why is the same objection not raised there?

And more to the point, if I had a PhD, people would not treat this as a decisive factor indicating that they ought to believe everything I say.  Rather, the same initial rejection would occur, for the same reasons; and the search for justification, afterward, would terminate at a different stopping point.

They would say, "Why should I believe you?  You're just some guy with a PhD! There are lots of those.  Come back when you're well-known in your field and tenured at a major university."

But do people actually believe arbitrary professors at Harvard who say weird things?  Of course not.  (But if I were a professor at Harvard, it would in fact be easier to get media attention.  Reporters initially disinclined to believe me—who would probably be equally disinclined to believe a random PhD-bearer—would still report on me, because it would be news that a Harvard professor believes such a weird thing.)

If you are saying things that sound wrong to a novice, as opposed to just rattling off magical-sounding technobabble about leptical quark braids in N+2 dimensions; and the hearer is a stranger, unfamiliar with you personally and with the subject matter of your field; then I suspect that the point at which the average person will actually start to grant credence overriding their initial impression, purely because of academic credentials, is somewhere around the Nobel Laureate level.  If that.  Roughly, you need whatever level of academic credential qualifies as "beyond the mundane".

This is more or less what happened to Eric Drexler, as far as I can tell.  He presented his vision of nanotechnology, and people said, "Where are the technical details?" or "Come back when you have a PhD!"  And Eric Drexler spent six years writing up technical details and got his PhD under Marvin Minsky for doing it.  And Nanosystems is a great book.  But did the same people who said, "Come back when you have a PhD", actually change their minds at all about molecular nanotechnology?  Not so far as I ever heard.

It has similarly been a general rule with the Singularity Institute that, whatever it is we're supposed to do to be more credible, when we actually do it, nothing much changes.  "Do you do any sort of code development?  I'm not interested in supporting an organization that doesn't develop code"—> OpenCog—> nothing changes.  "Eliezer Yudkowsky lacks academic credentials"—> Professor Ben Goertzel installed as Director of Research—> nothing changes.  The one thing that actually has seemed to raise credibility, is famous people associating with the organization, like Peter Thiel funding us, or Ray Kurzweil on the Board.

This might be an important thing for young businesses and new-minted consultants to keep in mind—that what your failed prospects tell you is the reason for rejection, may not make the real difference; and you should ponder that carefully before spending huge efforts.  If the venture capitalist says "If only your sales were growing a little faster!", if the potential customer says "It seems good, but you don't have feature X", that may not be the true rejection.  Fixing it may, or may not, change anything.

And it would also be something to keep in mind during disagreements.  Robin and I share a belief that two rationalists should not agree to disagree: they should not have common knowledge of epistemic disagreement unless something is very wrong.

I suspect that, in general, if two rationalists set out to resolve a disagreement that persisted past the first exchange, they should expect to find that the true sources of the disagreement are either hard to communicate, or hard to expose.  E.g:

  • Uncommon, but well-supported, scientific knowledge or math;
  • Long inferential distances;
  • Hard-to-verbalize intuitions, perhaps stemming from specific visualizations;
  • Zeitgeists inherited from a profession (that may have good reason for it);
  • Patterns perceptually recognized from experience;
  • Sheer habits of thought;
  • Emotional commitments to believing in a particular outcome;
  • Fear of a past mistake being disproven;
  • Deep self-deception for the sake of pride or other personal benefits.

If the matter were one in which all the true rejections could be easily laid on the table, the disagreement would probably be so straightforward to resolve that it would never have lasted past the first meeting.

"Is this my true rejection?" is something that both disagreers should surely be asking themselves, to make things easier on the Other Fellow.  However, attempts to directly, publicly psychoanalyze the Other may cause the conversation to degenerate very fast, in my observation.

Still—"Is that your true rejection?" should be fair game for Disagreers to humbly ask, if there's any productive way to pursue that sub-issue.  Maybe the rule could be that you can openly ask, "Is that simple straightforward-sounding reason your true rejection, or does it come from intuition-X or professional-zeitgeist-Y?"  While the more embarrassing possibilities lower on the table are left to the Other's conscience, as their own responsibility to handle.

Post scriptum:

This post is not really about PhDs in general, or their credibility value in particular.  But I've always figured that to the extent this was a strategically important consideration, it would make more sense to recruit an academic of existing high status, than spend a huge amount of time trying to achieve low or moderate academic status.

However, if any professor out there wants to let me come in and just do a PhD in analytic philosophy—just write the thesis and defend it—then I have, for my own use, worked out a general and mathematically elegant theory of Newcomblike decision problems.  I think it would make a fine PhD thesis, and it is ready to be written—if anyone has the power to let me do things the old-fashioned way.

 

Part of the Against Rationalization subsequence of How To Actually Change Your Mind

Next post: "Entangled Truths, Contagious Lies"

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There need not be just one "true objection"; there can be many factors that together lead to an estimate. Whether you have a Ph.D., and whether folks with Ph.D. have reviewed your claims, and what they say, can certainly be relevant. Also remember that you should care lots more about the opinions of experts that could build on and endorse your work, than about average Joe opinions. Very few things ever convince average folks of anything unusual; target a narrower audience.

Most transhumanist ideas fall under the category of "not even wrong." Drexler's Nanosystems is ignored because it's a work of "speculative engineering" that doesn't address any of the questions a chemist would pose (i.e., regarding synthesis). It's a non-event. It shows that you can make fancy molecular structures under certain computational models. SI is similar. What do you expect a scientist to say about SI? Sure, they can't disprove the notion, but there's nothing for them to discuss either. The transhumanist community has a tendency to argue for its positions along the lines of "you can't prove this isn't possible" which is completely uninteresting from a practical viewpoint.

If I was going to depack "you should get a PhD" I'd say the intention is along the lines of: you should attempt to tackle something tractable before you start speculating on Big Ideas. If you had a PhD, maybe you'd be more cautious. If you had a PhD, maybe you'd be able to step outside the incestuous milieu of pop sci musings you find yourself trapped in. There's two things you get from a formal education: one is broad, you're exposed to a variety of subject matter that you're unlikely to encounter as an autodidact; the other is specific, you're forced to focus on problems you'd likely dismiss as trivial as an autodidact. Both offer strong correctives to preconceptions.

As for why people are less likely to express the same concern when the topic is rationality; there's a long tradition of disrespect for formal education when it comes to dispensing advice. Your discussions of rationality usually have the format of sage advice rather than scientific analysis. Nobody cares if Dr. Phil is a real doctor.

"There's two things you get from a formal education: one is broad, you're exposed to a variety of subject matter that you're unlikely to encounter as an autodidact;"

As someone who has a Ph.D., I have to disagree here. Most of my own breadth of knowledge has come from pursuing topics on my own initiative outside of the classroom, simply because they interested me or because they seemed likely to help me solve some problem I was working on. In fact, as a grad student, most of the things I needed to learn weren't being taught in any of the classes available to me.

The choice isn't between being an autodidact or getting a Ph.D.; I don't think you can really earn the latter unless you have the skills of the former.

In fact, as a grad student, most of the things I needed to learn weren't being taught in any of the classes available to me.

But being a grad student gave you the need to learn them.

If you had a PhD, maybe you'd be able to step outside the incestuous milieu of pop sci musings you find yourself trapped in.

That sounds like it's less "Once you get a Ph.D., I'll believe you," than "Once you get a Ph.D., you'll stop believing that."

Of course, those aren't so different: if I expect that getting a Ph. D would make one less likely to believe X, then believing X after getting a Ph.D is a stronger signal than simply believing X.

Which transhumanist ideas are "not even wrong"?

And do you mean simply 'not well specified enough'? Or more like 'unfalsifiable'?

You also seem to be implying that scientists cannot discuss topics outside of their field, or even outside its current reach.

My philosophy on language is that people can generally discuss anything. For any words that we have heard (and indeed, many we haven't), we have some clues as to their meaning, e.g. based on the context in which they've been used and similarity to other words.

Also, would you consider being cautious an inherently good thing?

Finally, from my experience as a Masters student in AI, many people are happy to give opinions on transhumanism, it's just that many of those opinions are negative.

"Which transhumanist ideas are "not even wrong"?"

Technological Singularity, for example (as defined in Wikipedia). In my view, it is just atheistic version of Rapture or The End Of World As We Know It endemic in various cults and equally likely.

Reason for that is that recursive self-improvement is not possible, since it requires perfect self-knowledge and self-understanding. In reality, AI will be black box to itself, like our brains are black boxes to ourself.

More precisely, my claim is that any mind on any level of complexity is insuficient to understand itself. It is possible for more advanced mind to understand simpler mind, but it obviously does not help very much in context of direct self-improvement.

AI with any self-preservation instincts would be as likely to willingly preform direct self-modification to its mind as you to get stabbed by icepick through eyesocket.

So any AI improvement would have to be done old way. Slow way. No fast takeoff. No intelligence explosion. No Singularity.

Our brains are mysterious to us not simply because they're our brains and no one can fully understand themselves, but because our brains are the result of millions of years of evolutionary kludges and because they're made out of hard-to-probe meat. We are baffled by chimpanzee brains or even rabbit brains in many of the same ways as we're baffled by human brains.

Imagine an intelligent agent whose thinking machinery is designed differently from ours. It's cleanly and explicitly divided into modules. It comes with source code and comments and documentation and even, in some cases, correctness proofs. Maybe there are some mysterious black boxes; they come with labels saying "Mysterious Black Box #115. Neural network trained to do X. Empirically appears to do X reliably. Other components assume only that it does X within such-and-such parameters.". Its hardware is made out of (notionally) discrete components with precise specifications, and comes with some analysis to show that if the low-level components meet the spec then the overall function of the hardware should be as documented.

Suppose that's your brain. You might, I guess, be reluctant to experiment on it in any way in place, but you might feel quite comfortable changing EXPLICIT_FACT_STORAGE_SIZE from 4GB to 8GB, or reimplementing the hardware on a new semiconductor substrate you've designed that lets every component run at twice the speed while remaining within the appropriately-scaled specifications, and making a new instance. If it causes disaster, you can probably tell; if not, you've got a New Smarter You up and running.

Of course, maybe you couldn't tell if some such change caused disasters of a sufficiently subtle kind. That's a reasonable concern. But this isn't an ice-pick-through-the-eye-socket sort of concern, and it isn't the sort of concern that makes it obvious that "recursive self-improvement is not possible".

but you might feel quite comfortable changing EXPLICIT_FACT_STORAGE_SIZE

While I agree with the overall thrust of your comment, this brought to mind an old anecdote...

Such things are why I said "maybe you couldn't tell if some such change caused disasters of a sufficiently subtle kind".

When I was in Sales, we called this "finding their true objection."

Basically, if someone says "Well, I don't want it unless it has X!" You say "What if I could provide you with X?"

So if someone says "Come back when you have a PhD!" You say "What if I could provide you with PhDs who believe the same idea?" If they then say "There are tons of PhDs who believe crazy things!" then you say "Then what else would I need to convince you?"

Usually, between them dismissing their own criteria and the amount of ideas they can bring forward, you can bring it down to about three things. I've seen 5, but that was a hard case. Those aren't hard and fast rules: the rule is make sure you get them ALL, and make it specific, something like:

"So, if I can get you a published book by a PhD, respected in a field relevant to X, AND I can provide you with a for-profit organization that is working to accomplish goals relevant to X, AND I can make a flower appear out of my ear (or whatever)" THEN you will admit you were wrong and change your view?

And if you're REALLY invested, you should have been taking notes, and get them to 'initial' (not sign, people hate signing but will often initial: it feels like a smaller pain) the list. Consistency bias is also your friend here: if they say it aloud, they will probably also initial it.

And then, if you hand it all to them on a silver platter, with the right presentation you can get a "you were right, I was wrong" out of them. (If you screw it up, you can get begrudging acceptance. Occasionally hostility if you really botch it. But that's life in the interpersonal world.)

It sounds like a lot, but oddly, it isn't usually very hard to get people to change their minds this way. It takes some time, so you'd better be invested in making that change. If you know what to expect, handing it all early helps. But if you really want it to happen, this way works.

"Come back when you have a PhD" typically doesn't mean "if you have a PhD, I'll believe you", it means "if you have a PhD, I'll assign a high enough probability to you having something worthwhile to say that it's worth even listening to you and doing the work to figure out where you might be wrong".

Also, it can't be answered by "I could show you some PhDs who agree with me". As there are a lot of PhDs in the world, finding one out of that large number who agrees with you doesn't update the probability of being right by much compared to combining PhD and agreement in a specific person named in advance (such as yourself).

Furthermore, human beings are neither unsafe genies nor stupid AIs, and nobody will take kindly to you trying to act like one by giving someone something that matches their literal request but any human being with common sense can figure out isn't what they meant.

My request would probably be something like "come back when you have a PhD and get your observations published in a peer-reviewed journal".

Eliezer - 'I would be willing to get a PhD thesis if it went by the old rules and the old meaning of "Prove you can make an original, significant contribution to human knowledge and that you've mastered an existing field", rather than, "This credential shows you have spent X number of years in a building."'

British and Australasian universities don't require any coursework for their PhDs, just the thesis. If you think your work is good enough, write to Alan Hajek at ANU and see if he'd be willing to give it a look.

If I have to do a bachelors degree, I expect that I can pick up an accredited degree quickly at that university that lets you test out of everything (I think it's called University of Phoenix these days?). No Masters, though, unless there's an org that will let me test out of that.

The rule of thumb here is pretty simple: I'm happy to take tests, I'm not willing to sit in a building for two years solely in order to get a piece of paper which indicates primarily that I sat in a building for two years.

I have spent years in the Amazon Basin perfecting the art of run-on sentences and hubris it helps remind others of my shining intellect it also helps me find attractive women who love the smell of rich leather furnishings and old books.

Between bedding supermodels a new one each night, I have developed a scientific thesis that supersedes your talk of Solomonoff and Kolmogorov and any other Russian name you can throw at me. Here are a random snippet of conclusions a supposedly intelligent person will arrive having been graced by my mathematical superpowers:

  1. Everything you thought you knew about Probability is wrong.
  2. Existence is MADE of Existence.
  3. Einstien didn't know this, but slowly struggled toward my genius insight.
  4. They mocked me when I called myself a modern day Galileo, but like Bean I will come back after they have gone soft.

I can off the tip of my rather distinguished salt-and-pepper beard name at least 108 other conclusions that would startle lesser minds such as the John BAEZ the very devil himself or Adolf Hitler I have really lost my patience with you ElIzer.

They called me mad when I reinvented calculus! They will call me mad no longer oh I have to go make the Sweaty Wildebeest with a delicately frowning Victoria's Secret model.

I wish I could upvote this post back into the positive.

(It seems pretty obvious to me that is a direct satire of the previous post by a similar username. What, no love for sarcasm?)

I thought it was obvious.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by the consistently good comments on LessWrong, and don't realize that there actually are comments that bad and cliched.

Given that particular misspelling of Einstein and the mention of Baez, it was nearly impossible that BrandNameThinker hadn't heard of the crackpot index... But what's obvious for me (and you) needn't be obvious for someone else. (Or maybe the downvoters did get the joke but just didn't find it funny.)

I had to look it up, but I definitely agree. Especially considering how quickly the karma changes reversed after I edited in that footnote.

Generic,

The y appears on both sides of the equation, so these are differential equations. To avoid confusion, re-write as:

(1) (d/dt) F(t) = A*F(t) (2) (d/dt) F(t) = e^F(t)

Now plug e^At into (1) and -ln(C-t) into (2), and verify that they satisfy the condition.

Eliezer, I'm sure if you complete your friendly AI design, there will be multiple honorary PhDs to follow.

Ignoring the highly unlikely slurs about your calculus ability:

However, if any professor out there wants to let me come in and just do a PhD in analytic philosophy - just write the thesis and defend it - then I have, for my own use, worked out a general and mathematically elegant theory of Newcomblike decision problems. I think it would make a fine PhD thesis, and it is ready to be written - if anyone has the power to let me do things the old-fashioned way.

British universities? That's the traditional place to do that sort of thing. Oxbridge.

Vladimir, I don't quite think that's the "narrower audience" Robin is talking about...

Robin, see the Post Scriptum. I would be willing to get a PhD thesis if it went by the old rules and the old meaning of "Prove you can make an original, significant contribution to human knowledge and that you've mastered an existing field", rather than, "This credential shows you have spent X number of years in a building." (This particular theory would be hard enough to write up that I may not get around to it if a PhD credential isn't at stake.)

Eliezer,

See poke's comment above (which is so on the nose, it actually inspired me to register). Then consider the following.

You will never get a PhD in the manner you propose, because that would fulfill only a part of the purpose of a PhD. The number of years spent in the building can be (and in too many cases is) wasted time - but if things are done in a proper manner, this time (which can be only three or four years) is critical.

For science PhDs specifically, the idea isn't to just come up with something novel and write it up. The idea is to go into the field with a question that you don't have an answer for, not yet. To find ways to collect data, and then to actually collect it. To build intricate, detailed models that answer your question precisely and completely, fitting all the available data. To design experiments specifically so you can test your models. And finally, to watch these models completely and utterly fail, nine times out of ten.

They won't fail because you missed something while building them. They will fail because you could only test them properly after making them. If you just built the model that fit everything, and then never tested it with specific experiments... you could spend a very long time convinced that you have found the truth. Several iterations of this process makes people far less willing to extrapolate beyond the available data - certainly not nearly as wildly and as far as transhumanists do.

A good philosophy PhD can do the same, but it is much more difficult to get an optimal result.

Don't take this the wrong way. I respect and admire your achievements, and I think getting a PhD would be a waste of time for you at this point. But it is entirely true that getting one - a real one - would increase the acceptance of your thoughts and ideas. Not (just) because a PhD would grant you prestige, but because your thoughts and ideas would actually get better.

Which finally brings us to the reason for the dichotomy you noted in your post. Your rationality musings are accepted because a) they are inspiring, and b) they can be actionable and provide solid feedback. A person can read them, try the ideas out, and see if those ideas work for them. Transhumanism, alas, falls under "half-baked" category; and the willingness to follow wildly speculative tangents from poorly constrained models... well, in order to have any weight there, you better either show concrete, practical results... or have credentials that show you have experienced significant model failure in the past. Repeatedly. And painfully. With significant cost to yourself.

As a current grad student myself, I could not disagree with poke's comment and this comment more. I work for a very respected adviser in computer vision from a very prestigious university. The reason I was accepted to this lab is because I am an NDSEG fellow. Many other qualified people lost out because my attendance here frees up a lot of my adviser's money for more students. In the mean time, I have a lot of pretty worthwhile ideas in physical vision and theories of semantic visual representations. However, I spend most of my days building Python GUI widgets for a group of collaborating sociologists. They collect really mundane data by annotating videos and no off the shelf stuff does quite what they want... so guess who gets to do that grunt work for a summer? Grad students.

You should really read the good Economist article The Disposable Academic. Graduate studentships are business acquisitions in all but the utmost theoretical fields. Advisers want the most non-linear things imaginable. For example, I am a pure math guy, with heavy emphasis on machine learning methods and probability theory. Yet my day job is seriously creative-energy-draining Python programming. The programming isn't even related to original math, it's just a novel thing for some sociologists to use. My adviser doesn't want me to split my time between reading background theory, etc. He wants me to develop this code because it makes him look good in front of collaborators.

Academia is mostly a bad bad place. I think Eliezer's desire to circumvent all the crap of grad school is totally right. The old way was a real, true apprenticeship. It isn't like that anymore. Engineering is especially notorious for this. Minimize the amount of tenured positions, and balloon the number of grad students in order to farm out the work that profs don't want to do. For almost all of these people, they will just go through the motions, do mundane bullshit, and write a thesis not really worth the paper it gets printed on. The few who don't follow this route usually just take it upon themselves to go and read on their own and become experts across many different disciplines and then make interconnections between previously independent fields or results. Eliezer has certainly done this with discussions of Newcombe-like problems and friendly A.I. from a philosophical perspective. He's done more honest academic work here than almost anyone I know in academia.

When I used to work at MIT Lincoln Laboratory, a colleague of mine had a great saying about grad school: "Grad school is 99% about putting your ass in the chair." It is indeed about spending X years in building Y and getting Z publications. Pure mathematics is somewhat of an exception at elite schools. To boot, people don't take you any more seriously when you finish. It continues on as a political/social process where you must win grants and provide widgets for collaborators and funding agencies.

There is much more to be said, and of course, I am a grad student, so I must feel that at least for myself it is a good decision despite all of the issues. Well, that's not quite true. Part of it is that as an undergrad, all of my professors just paid attention to the fact that I was energetic and attentive when they talked about topics they liked, and it created a cumulative jazzed-up feeling for those topics. I expected grad school to be very different than it really is. I should also add that I have been in two different PhD programs, both Ivy League (I can talk more specifically in private). I transferred because the adviser situation at the first school was pretty grim. There was only one faculty member doing things close to what I wanted to study, and he was such a famous name that he had not the time of day for me. For example, I once scheduled a meeting with him to discuss possible research and when I arrived he let me know it was going to be a jointly held meeting with his current doctoral student. While that student wrote on a chalkboard, I got to ask questions. When the student was finished, this prof addressed the student for various intervals of time and then came back to me. This sort of pedantic garbage is the rule rather than the exception.

I find myself having to constantly fight the urge go home from a long, wrist-achingly terrible day of mundane Python programming and just mentally check out. Instead, I read about stuff here on LW, or I read physics books, or now A.I. complexity books. Hopefully my thesis will be a contribution that I enjoy and find interesting. Even better if it helps move science along in a "meaningful way", but the standard PhD process is absolutely not going to let that happen unless I actively intervene and do things all on my own.

Anyone considering a PhD should consider this heavily. My experience is that it is nothing like the description above or poke's comment. I think Bostrom should advise a thesis with Eliezer because it would be a great addition to philosophy, and I don't want Eliezer burdened with nuisance coursework requirements. We should be unyoking uncommonly smart people when we find them, not forcing them to jump through extra hoops just for the pedantic sake of standardization.

Ok, so - I hear what you're saying, but a) that is not the way it's supposed to be, and b) you are missing the point.

First, a), even in the current academia, you are in a bad position. If I were you, I would switch mentors or programs ASAP.

I understand where you're coming from perfectly. I had a very similar experience: I spent three years in a failed PhD (the lab I was working in went under at the same time as the department I was in), and I ended up getting a MS instead. But even in that position, which was all tedious gruntwork, I understood the hypothesis and had some input. I switched to a different field, and a different mentor, where most of my work was still tedious, but it was driven by ideas I came to while working with my adviser.

If your position is, as it seems to be, even worse - that you have NO input whatsoever, and are purely cheap labor - then you should switch mentors immediately. If you don't, you might finish your PhD with a great deal of bitterness, but it is much more likely that you will simply burn out and drop out.

Which brings me to b). As I said above, it would be pointless for Eliezer to go to grad school now. Even at best, it contains a lot of tedious, repetitive work. But the essential point stands: in a poorly constrained area such as transhumanism, grand ideas are not enough. That is where PhD does have a function, and does have a reason.

Actually, my mentor is among one of the nicest guys around and is a good manager, offers good advice, and has a consistent record of producing successful students. It's just that almost no grad student gets to have real input in what they are doing. If you do have that, consider yourself lucky, because the dozens of grad students that I know aren't in a position like that. I just had a meeting today where my adviser talked to me about having to balance my time between "whatever needs doing" (for the utility of our whole research group rather than just my own dissertation) and doing my own reading/research. His idea (shared by many faculty members) is that for a few years at the front end of the PhD, you mostly do about 80% general utility work and infrastructure work, just to build experience, write code, get involved... then after you get into some publications a few years later, the roles switch and you shift to more like 80% writing and doing your own thing (research). The problem is that if you're a passionate student with good ideas, then that first few years of bullshit infrastructure work is a complete waste of time. The run-of-the-mill PhD student (who generally is not really all that smart or hardworking) might do fine just being told what to program for a few years, but the really intellectually curious people will die inside. Plus, for those really smart PhD students out there, I think it's in my best interest that they be cleared of all nuisance responsibilities and allowed to just work.

As for point (b), my reasoning would be like this: "in a poorly constrained area such as transhumanism, grand ideas are not enough, and that's exactly why a PhD is irrelevant and I have no reason to think that someone has better or more useful or more important ideas than Eliezer just because that person has been published in peer reviewed journals."

Immediate association: pick-up artists know well that when a girl rejects you, she often doesn't know the true reason and has to deceive herself. You could recruit some rationalists among PUAs. They wholeheartedly share your sentiment that "rational agents must WIN", and have accumulated many cynical but useful insights about human mating behaviour.

Can't do basic derivatives? Seriously?!? I'm for kicking the troll out. His bragging about mediocre mathematical accomplishments isn't informative or entertaining to us readers.

The one thing that actually has seemed to raise credibility, is famous people associating with the organization, like Peter Thiel funding us, or Ray Kurzweil on the Board.

Well, yeah.

You spend a lot of your time worrying about how to get an AI to operate within the interests of lesser beings. You also seem to spend a certain amount of time laying out Schelling fences around "dark side tactics". It seems to me that these are closely related processes.

As you have said, "people are crazy, the world is mad". We are not operating with a population of rational decision makers. Even the subset of the population that appears to be rational decision makers often aren't; signaling rationality convincingly to other non-rational agents is often easier than actually being rational.

It seems that often, the things that you label "dark side" tactics are the only tools available for rational beings to extract resources out of non-rational animals, even if those resources are to be used explicitly for the non-rational animals' benefit. (I'll leave it for one of the Reactionaries to present the argument that you shouldn't bother worrying about their benefit; I happen to share most of your ethical goals, so I doubt I could do the argument justice.)

Over the past five years, have you found that it's become easier to navigate the wider social arena under your own rules, or are your goals and assertions still running into the same credibility problems? (I'm hoping it's the former, as I could use a hopeful glimmer, but reality is what it is and I will deal with it regardless.)

Still - "Is that your true rejection?" should be fair game for Disagreers to humbly ask, if there's any productive way to pursue that sub-issue.

Perhaps it should, but the problem is that answering this question is one of the big problems in salesmanship: working out the customer's true obstacle to wanting to buy from you. Salesmen would love to be able to get a true answer to this question - and some even ask it directly - but people tend to receive this as manipulation: finding out their inner thoughts for purposes of getting their money. This feeling happens when selling someone on an idea as much as it does when selling an item for money.

Vladimir Stepney also notes that they may not know the answer themselves. (Salesmen are aware of this problem too.)

As such, asking the question directly - as you note in your "if" - may end up being counterproductive. If this question occurs to you, you're already in sales mode. If you really want to make that sale, this is a question you have to divine the answer to yourself.

And with that lovely exhibition of math talent, combined with the assertion that he skipped straight to grad school in mathematics, I do hereby request GenericThinker to cease and desist from further commenting on Overcoming Bias.

Perhaps you are marginally ahead of your time Eliezer, and the young individuals that will flush out the theory are still traipsing about in diapers. In which case, either being a billionare or a phD makes it more likely you can become their mentor. I'd do the former if you have a choice.

"However, if any professor out there wants to let me come in and just do a PhD in analytic philosophy - just write the thesis and defend it - then I have, for my own use, worked out a general and mathematically elegant theory of Newcomblike decision problems. I think it would make a fine PhD thesis, and it is ready to be written - if anyone has the power to let me do things the old-fashioned way."

I think this is a good idea for you. But don't be surprised if finding the right one takes more work than an occasional bleg. And I do recommend getting it at Harvard or the equivalent. And if I'm not mistaken, you may still have to do a bachelors and masters?

My university does not require a masters' degree to get a PhD.

You could recruit some rationalists among PUAs. They wholeheartedly share your sentiment that "rational agents must WIN"

You have. We do. And yes, they must.

There are some views of Yudkowsky I don't necessarily agree with, and none of them have anything to do with him having or not having a PhD.

Are you sure this type of rejection (or excuse of a rejection) is common and significant?

There are some views of Yudkowsky I don't necessarily agree with, and none of them have anything to do with him having or not having a PhD.

Would you be more inclined to agree with him if he did in fact have a PhD (in the relevant fields)? If your (honest) answer to this question is "yes", then your rejection does have something to do with him not having a PhD.

Are you sure this type of rejection (or excuse of a rejection) is common and significant?

Based on personal experience, I would say so, yes.

I'd be more inclined to agree with him if he was God, too, but I wouldn't say "my rejection of his ideas has something to do with the fact that he is not God". For that matter I would be more inclined to agree with him if he used mind control rays on me, but "I reject Eliezer's ideas partly because he isn't using a mind control ray on me" would be a ludicrous thing to say.

"My rejection has to do with X" connotes more than just a Bayseian probability estimate.

Both of your hypothetical statements are correct, and both of them would be bad reasons to believe something (well, I'm a bit fuzzy on the God hypothetical--is God defined as always correct?), just as the presence or absence of a PhD would be a bad reason to believe something. (This is not to say that PhD's offer zero evidence one way or the other, but rather that the evidence they offer is often overwhelmed by other, more immediate factors.) The phrasing of your comment gives me the impression that you're trying to express disagreement with me about something, but I can't detect any actual disagreement. Could you clarify your intent for me here? Thanks in advance.

I disagree that if you would be less likely to reject his ideas if X were true, that can always be usefully described as "my rejection has something to do with X". The statement "my rejection has something to do with X" literally means "I would be less likely to reject it if X were true", but it does not connote that.

An interesting question, and not an easy one to answer in the way I could be sure you understood the same thing what I meant.

My original thought when composing the comment was that it never occurred to me that "he doesn't have a PhD so his opinion is less worth", and I would never use the fact that he doesn't have a PhD, neither in an assumed debate with him nor for any self-assurance. This means that even if I answered with a "clear yes" to your question, it still wouldn't mean that it was the cause of the rejection.

Loss of credit because he doesn't have a PhD does not necessarily equal the gain of credit because he does have a PhD. Yes, I realize that this is the most attackable sentence in my answer.

The disagreements are more centered on personal opinion, morality, philosophical interpretation, opinion about culture and/or religion, and in part on interpreting history. So, mostly soft sciences. This means that there would be no relevant PhD in these cases (a PhD in a philosophical field wouldn't matter to me as a deciding factor)

On the other hand, if it was a scientific field, then I might unconsciously have given him a little higher probability of being right if he did have a PhD in the field, but this would be dwarfed by the much larger probability gain caused by him actually working in the relevant field, PhD or not. As of yet I don't have any really opposite views about any of his scientific views. Maybe I hold some possible future events a little more or less probable, or am unsure in things he is very sure about, but the conclusion is: I don't have scientific disagreements with him as of yet.

About whether this type of rejection is common: if we take my explanation at the beginning of this answer, then I guess it is uncommon to reject him in that way (and his article might lean a tiny little bit in the direction of a strawman argument: "they only disagree because they think it's important that I don't have a PhD, so this means they just don't have better excuses"). If we take your definition, then I agree that it might be higher.