I do think Rand was being a bit more complex than that. The whole point of "Atlas" is: the heroes are failing to win because they insist on acting as though they were in an ideal fair world, but those who who accept the status quo and work to win inside it will end up burned worse, because the system is structured to corrupt and consume them - meanwhile our heroes escape with virtue intact. "Atlas" constructs a spread of parasitic, beaten, adapting, fair-but-accepting, and fair-and-renouncing characters to illustrate this. Rand is trying to say "a rationalist who understood the rules of the game would decide not to play".

Really, the fault with "Atlas" is that it posits an awful world-spanning System that in factual reality, just doesn't exist. And without that premise it's two inches of wasted paper.

Previously in seriesSelecting Rationalist Groups
Followup toRationality is Systematized Winning, Extenuating Circumstances

Why emphasize the connection between rationality and winning?  Well... that is what decision theory is for.  But also to place a Go stone to block becoming a whining-based community.

Let's be fair to Ayn Rand:  There were legitimate messages in Atlas Shrugged that many readers had never heard before, and this lent the book a part of its compelling power over them.  The message that it's all right to excel—that it's okay to be, not just good, but better than others—of this the Competitive Conspiracy would approve.

But this is only part of Rand's message, and the other part is the poison pill, a deadlier appeal:  It's those looters who don't approve of excellence who are keeping you down.  Surely you would be rich and famous and high-status like you deserve if not for them, those unappreciative bastards and their conspiracy of mediocrity.

If you consider the reasonableness-based conception of rationality rather than the winning-based conception of rationality—well, you can easily imagine some community of people congratulating themselves on how reasonable they were, while blaming the surrounding unreasonable society for keeping them down.  Wrapping themselves up in their own bitterness for reality refusing to comply with the greatness they thought they should have.

But this is not how decision theory works—the "rational" strategy adapts to the other players' strategies, it does not depend on the other players being rational.  If a rational agent believes the other players are irrational then it takes that expectation into account in maximizing expected utility.  Van Vogt got this one right: his rationalist protagonists are formidable from accepting reality swiftly and adapting to it swiftly, without reluctance or attachment.

Self-handicapping (hat-tip Yvain) is when people who have been made aware of their own incompetence or probable future failure, deliberately impose handicaps on themselves—on the standard model, in order to give themselves an excuse for failure.  To make sure they had an excuse, subjects reduced preparation times for athletic events, studied less, exerted less effort, gave opponents an advantage, lowered their own expectations, even took a drug they had been told was performance-inhibiting...

So you can see how much people value having an excuse—how much they'll pay to make sure they have something outside themselves to blame, in case of failure.  And this is a need which many belief systems fill—they provide an excuse.

It's the government's fault, that taxes you and suppresses the economy—if it weren't for that, you would be a great entrepreneur.  It's the fault of those less competent who envy your excellence and slander you—if not for that, the whole world would pilgrimage to admire you.  It's racism, or sexism, that keeps you down—if it weren't for that, you would have gotten so much further in life with the same effort.  Your rival Bob got the promotion by bootlicking.  Those you call sinners may be much wealthier than you, but that's because God set up the system to reward the good deeds of the wicked in this world and punish them for their sins in the next, vice versa for the virtuous:  "A boor cannot know, nor can a fool understand this: when the wicked bloom like grass and all the doers of iniquity blossom—it is to destroy them till eternity."

And maybe it's all true.  The government does impose taxes and barriers to new businesses.  There is racism and sexism.  Scientists don't run out and embrace new ideas without huge amounts of work to evangelize them.  Loyalty is a huge factor in promotions and flattery does signify loyalty.  I can't back religions on that divine plan thing, but still, those wealthier than you may have gotten there by means more vile than you care to use...

And so what?  In other countries there are those with far greater obstacles and less opportunity than you.  There are those born with Down's Syndrome.  There's not a one of us in this world, even the luckiest, whose path is entirely straight and without obstacles.  In this unfair world, the test of your existence is how well you do in this unfair world.

I earlier suggested that we view our parents and environment and genes as having determined which person makes a decision—plucking you out of Platonic person-space to agonize in front of the burning orphanage, rather than someone else—but you determine what that particular person decides.  If, counterfactually, your genes or environment had been different, then it would not so much change your decision as determine that someone else would make that decision.

In the same sense, I would suggest that a baby with your genes, born into a universe entirely fair, would by now be such a different person that as to be nowhere close to "you", your point in Platonic person-space.  You are defined by the particular unfair challenges that you face; and the test of your existence is how well you do with them.

And in that unfair challenge, the art of rationality (if you can find it) is there to help you deal with the horrible unfair challenge and by golly win anyway, not to provide fellow bitter losers to hang out with.  Even if the government does tax you and people do slander you and racists do discriminate against you and others smarm their way to success while you keep your ethics... still, this whole business of rationality is there to help you win anyway, if you can find the art you need.  Find the art together, win together, if we can.  And if we can't win, it means we weren't such good rationalists as we thought, and ought to try something different the next time around.  (If it's one of those challenges where you get more than one try.)

From within that project—what good does a sense of violated entitlement do?  At all?  Ever?  What good does it do to tell ourselves that we did everything right and deserved better, and that someone or something else is to blame?  Is that the key thing we need to change, to do better next time?

Immediate adaptation to the realities of the situation!  Followed by winning!

That is how I would cast down the gauntlet, just to make really, really sure we don't go down the utterly, completely, pointlessly unhelpful, surprisingly common path of mutual bitterness and consolation.

 

Part of the sequence The Craft and the Community

Next post: "Mandatory Secret Identities"

Previous post: "Incremental Progress and the Valley"

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One of the greatest benefits I've gotten from (westernized) Buddhism is the idea that a resistance to reality is at the root of much unhappiness.

It seems absurd to me that the human mind so constantly wishes that reality was different - I don't see how it serves our evolutionary needs. But while I don't have an explanation, it is amazing how often I find myself denying reality instead of "Immediate adaptation to the realities of the situation! Followed by winning!". For example, when I encounter bad, unexpected auto traffic, whining is such a horribly unproductive reaction that it still boggles my mind every time I do it. Yet in many moods (already tired, stressed) it is my default response.

I think many rationalists would get a lot more personal happiness out of working on this single concept, as well as improving strategy for our causes, than many of the narrower and more complex ideas presented on OB/LW.

I heartily endorse this sentiment, but it's important to remember that wishing reality was different can also be valuable motivator.

I'm pretty good at accepting the things I cannot change. The problem is that this sometimes generalizes too broadly, and leads me to accept things that I probably shouldn't. My emotional reactions don't always have the wisdom to know the difference.

I'm talking about present reality, not future reality. Our mind doesn't seem to distinguish very well, as you mention w/ your emotional reactions. We imagine that the current context is different in the same way that we imagine the future could be different, even though the current situation is (tautologically) unchangeable.

The question of whether future reality can be changed is far from straightforward, but at least there's a shot. Whereas we know for sure that the inputs we are experiencing in the present moment cannot be changed. We can act in the next moment to change things in the moment after that, but nothing will change the fact that I've encountered an unexpected traffic jam.

Well, I do have quite a bit of the "bitter loser" in me, but I don't go blaming other people for my failures. All I do is waste my time reading blogs on the internet and playing video games, so, as that other guy named Buffett put it, it's my own damn fault.

I always interpreted the 'Looters and Moochers' differently; a corollary to the 'It's okay to Win,' statement saying 'It's okay that others Lose - they did so by their own hand.' Rather than offering an excuse for Rationalists/Ubermenschs/Super-Geeks to say 'Nice guys finish last,' I read it as an indictment of that very behaviour. Only 'Looters and Moochers' make excuses, blame others, and fault circumstances - the Super-Geek Wins despite all of those.

I'd wager that Ayn Rand would agree with me if I said this to her (if she wasn't too busy denouncing me for being a Libertarian), but what she intended is irrelevant when speaking about the effects of her work; and along those lines I think you hit the nail on the head. The self-proclaimed Objectivists I've met have all given off a creepy vibe. I think it might be due to misinterpreting Rand in precisely the way you described.

They call themselves Winners, imagine themselves as heroic protagonists (far superior to plebs like you) despite never having actually Won anything; it's all society's fault.

They might as well say: "Oh, I was behaving as a good Rationalist, but my opponent was Irrational! It's not my fault!"

Eliezer FTW.

The self-proclaimed Objectivists I've met have all given off a creepy vibe. I think it might be due to misinterpreting Rand in precisely the way you described.

They call themselves Winners, imagine themselves as heroic protagonists (far superior to plebs like you) despite never having actually Won anything; it's all society's fault.

They might as well say: "Oh, I was behaving as a good Rationalist, but my opponent was Irrational! It's not my fault!"

Did they say "I'm a winner" in your presence? How did you know what they imagined? That you felt a "creepy vibe" says more about you than them. Where else have you felt this "creepy vibe"? I don't see a lot of extensional facts in your criticisms of Objectivists. I just see that you clearly don't like them.

The Objectivists I have personally known have been fine, decent, fun people. A married couple that went off to be professors at the University of Georgia. I knew the husband better, and played tennis with him while we were both in grad school. Neither of us were very good, but it was exercise.

They invited me over to their house a few times to play bridge and have drinks with some of their other friends, all Objectivist leaning, if not Objectivists. I always had a good time. They never told me they were "Winners". The discussions were lively, honest, and interesting. They gave me quite a pleasant vibe, of honest, rational people who didn't have a lot of time for trying to getting ahead by snearing at other people.

"But this is only part of Rand's message, and the other part is the poison pill, a deadlier appeal: It's those looters who don't approve of excellence who are keeping you down."

As lethal as I'm sure it will be to speak even faint praise of a person that is so widely hated that expressing loathing of her is a common 'applause light'...

That's not what Rand's message was. It wasn't even part of her message. One of her main points was, to use the classical phrase, that evil is ultimately impotent. The power of evil to harm comes entirely from the failure of good to recognize it and refuse to loan it its own power.

Rand's message was that people were keeping themselves down, that they had bought into ethical and ideological positions and accepted them without questioning, that they had accepted teachings which passed off poorly-disguised wolves as lambs long before they'd developed the critical thinking skills to evaluate the teachings. And that the teachings were that white was black and black was white, etc.

I am often struck that the people who declaim Rand's writings and ideas most vehemently, especially those that use their proclaimed disapproval to win the approval of others, almost always hold up crude parodies of what Rand actually said in the process, and rarely address her actual positions and their strengths and weakness (of which there are many in both categories).

"One of her main points was, to use the classical phrase, that evil is ultimately impotent. The power of evil to harm comes entirely from the failure of good to recognize it and refuse to loan it its own power."

This is a defense of Rand? I agree it's one of her main points. Also completely false, to the point where I consider it a classic error of people trying to reform social systems. The idea that if you can just expose the evil of the system, that will fix the problems.

Intuitive, noble, and totally wrong when applied to a world where evil most often emerges from the behavior systems which are not easily understood or modified.

disclaimer: the ranty part is not directed at yudkowsky

"From within that project - what good does a sense of violated entitlement do? At all? Ever? What good does it do to tell ourselves that we did everything right and deserved better, and that someone or something else is to blame? Is that the key thing we need to change, to do better next time?"

I dunno. I don't follow that many competitive endeavours but the people who cast about looking for excuses after a loss tend to be pretty good. Admittedly the people who go on about what a bitch you are if you make excuses also tend to be pretty good, as do the people who say stuff like only the results matter tend to be pretty good. (I'll also note I don't notice the middle group making any less excuses than average)

I also notice this among people I know.

People who are "bitter losers" don't tend to be very good but I expect the excuses are a product rather than cause of the problem. (and yes you can get into a bad self reinforcing system of excuses.) Of course being a bitter loser is something to avoid. But it's the loser part that's bad. The bitterness is never prior to the losing (and sometimes "fair enough).

But anyway, as to why casting about looking for excuses when you lose can be a good thing: if you're not really trying you're not going to care enough for there to be enough cognitive dissonance that you'll feel the need for an excuse. If you feel that losing is good enough, or that there's nothing to be done etc you won't need an excuse.

When losing It can be useful to feel like you should do better. If, to get that sense of should you have to cast about for something or someone to blame maybe you should do so.

If feeling entitled to victory makes you more likely to win, maybe you should feel entitled to victory.

And finally, if losing doesn't hurt you probably weren't trying at full capacity. One way to make it hurt less is to try less hard. Another is to make up excuses. Neither are optimal but one is obviously much more harmful and not everyone has the cognitive or emotional resources to react optimally (or more precisely, it's not optimal for everyone who doesn't to try to fix this due to oppurtunity cost as well as plain old normal cost)

Why write excuses off a priori? The important thing is to focus on winning.

Also, this is actually basically unrelated, but relevant to the same quote.

"What good does it do to tell ourselves that we did everything right and deserved better, and that someone or something else is to blame?"

If you really did do everything right and deserved better, and luck is to blame e.g. if you are playing tournament poker and make a bet at 60:40 odds losing shouldn't make you calibrate away from making those kinds of bets. You really, genuinely made the right decision. More generally doing things right does not necessarrilly entail winning. Don't become a responsibility fetishist (actually maybe do, but at least compartmentalise it), or a mystic that thinks lady luck bestows the winning cards on the player who deserves to win (hindsight bias.) Sometimes you need to defy the data (all this idiosynractic vocabulary is actually really useful. So much compression.)

Related to both of these points is I get really annoyed at people takeing more responsibility than they have earned. Taking responsibility for mistakes, fine, specifically stuff like "I could have done better, if I did this there wouldn't have been a problem" is probably healthy. Taking responsibility for everything that goes well, annoying and stupid: "I just went all in at 10 to 1 odds for a 50/50 payoff and won, clearly I cunningly outwitted my opponent" a great attitude for tilting (unsettling psychologically so as to cause suboptimal play) your opponents (and might be instrumentally useful to adopt sometimes, or even always, for that reason for some people) but as something you generally do, other than for this purpose (and/or used the same way as I described excuses could be earlier) is fucking terrible epistemology. Taking responsibility usually also means taking credit.

All of which was probably prompted by my hatred of people who, when they have a starting advantage, or get lucky, or just have more talent blame their opponents loss on self pity, excuses and so on. I forget where it was but there was an article about in which Eliezer claimed to have decided not to get anxious when doing public speaking after looking up at the crowd and not being anxious. A lot of this bitter loser stuff is self-fulfilling prophecy inflicted, in part, by this "making excuses makes you a loser" meme. Be satisfied with winning. You don't have to have the moral high ground as well as the actual win. especially when you make more excuses than the person you're robbing of them. This thing where every win has to be the product of cunning and outwitting, and anything the loser says is an excuse pisses me off. Just world fallacy?

But yeah there does seem to be something to all that positive thinking stuff. Specifically it can be easier to do something if you feel more confident, much like it can be harder to e.g. get angry at someone liable to punch you if you get angry with them.

I think the "only focus on winning" "there is no try" advice/attitude can be useful for bypassing anxiety problems. Don't give something any more space in your mind than is useful.

I think American Atheists might be better than objectivists as an example of a whining-based rationalist community.

I think American Atheists might be better than objectivists as an example of a whining-based rationalist community.

I'm not actually convinced that either are particularly rational, as a rule, except insofar as both have built communities around ideas that are mostly correct.

I come hailing as a more learned Objectivist than I was before. This article actually caused me to go find an online Objectivist community for the purpose of observing them to see if your assertion was true. I've found that it is not. I have not met a single "whiny" Objectivist out of all of the Objectivists I now chat almost-daily with.

Objectivism holds a primacy of existence attitude towards reality, as opposed to a primacy of consciousness attitude. This means that reality comes before our wishes, and if we want our wishes to come true, we have to work for them. We have to affect reality to get what we want, not whine about it.

A real Objectivist would work towards his goals in a rational manner. A whiner is being irrational and is therefore not being Objectivist when they do it.

I find it interesting that all of Objectivism's attackers are people who don't even understand the philosophy. You can't just read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and think you know Objectivism. Atlas Shrugged shows Objectivism in action. Galt's speech gives you a summary of it. But to really understand it, you must pursue the non-fiction. I haven't seen a rebuttal of Objectivism yet given by a person who knew the philosophy they were trying to rebuke.

I find it interesting that all of Objectivism's attackers are people who don't even understand the philosophy. You can't just read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and think you know Objectivism. Galt's speech gives you a summary of it. But to really understand it, you must pursue the non-fiction.

For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think that's true. Most criticisms of Rand can be effectively rebutted by showing their inconsistency with her fiction. No real need to get into her essays or The Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

I do think Rand was being a bit more complex than that. The whole point of "Atlas" is: the heroes are failing to win because they insist on acting as though they were in an ideal fair world, but those who who accept the status quo and work to win inside it will end up burned worse, because the system is structured to corrupt and consume them - meanwhile our heroes escape with virtue intact. "Atlas" constructs a spread of parasitic, beaten, adapting, fair-but-accepting, and fair-and-renouncing characters to illustrate this. Rand is trying to say "a rationalist who understood the rules of the game would decide not to play".

Really, the fault with "Atlas" is that it posits an awful world-spanning System that in factual reality, just doesn't exist. And without that premise it's two inches of wasted paper.

What Rand says is more like "An awesome rationalist who understood the sick twisted rules of the game would leave and start their own game and not stick with those awful losers who make the world suck."

So sure, Atlas explicitly encourages embracing the reality of an unfair world full of parasites - the heroes' character progression comes through that acceptance. But the characters of Atlas implicitly encourage whining and bitterness, which are symptoms of failing to accept the reality of an unfair world.

And I think the implicit message affects readers much more strongly.

"Really, the fault with "Atlas" is that it posits an awful world-spanning System that in factual reality, just doesn't exist."

I can't agree with that. I don't believe there's some secret, scheming Conspiracy making schools stunt the intellectual development of children. Nevertheless, that is the overwhelmingly common outcome in my society.

There's no System trying to corrupt the world. Just lots of individual actors acting in accordance with that they perceive their interests to be.

There's no Invisible Hand, either. Yet markets self-organize.

I'm glad to see that many others have pointed out EJ's mistaken interpretation of Objectivism. To add a prototypical passage to demonstrate the error:

Ellsworth Toohey: There's the building that should have been yours. There are buildings going up all over the city which are great chances refused and given to incompetent fools. You're walking the streets while they're doing the work that you love but cannot obtain. This city is closed to you. It is I who have done it! Don't you want to know my motive?

Howard Roark: No.

Ellsworth Toohey: I'm fighting you and shall fight you in every way I can.

Howard Roark: You're free to do what you please.

Ellsworth Toohey: Mr. Roark, we're alone here. Why don't you tell me what you think of me in any words you wish.

Howard Roark: But I don't think of you.

Of course the looters make life worse. So does rust. Their evil has no significance to an Objectivist's moral worth.

I have my own disagreements with Objectivism, but I find it interesting how Rand plays the moral Bogeyman for a wide swath of US culture.

I think it's perfectly possible to maximize your outcome given current conditions while still being resentful that it is only a local maxima and there are much higher hills that you are being prevented from climbing.

I have two objections:

Being resentful of inevitable reality (I'm not tall enough or fast enough to ever make it onto the NBA, no matter how hard I practice) makes about as much sense as being angry at the sky for being blue, or at your eyes for only having three colour sensors. Yes, it sucks, but reality isn't an entity which you can influence by yelling at. This sort of resentment is counter-productive.

In the second sense, bitterness can become an excuse for why you never cross over to the ideal Maxima. Are you sure this is the maximum of your potential? Really? Really? The only thing you can control in this world is yourself; assigning agency to outside forces detracts that agency from your own abilities. Even if you're right, and fate has it in for you, growing resentful will do nothing but make things worse.

Your maximum while being resentful is not as high as your maximum without it.

It's those looters who don't approve of excellence who are keeping you down. Surely you would be rich and famous and high-status like you deserve if not for them, those unappreciative bastards and their conspiracy of mediocrity.

Any Objectivists who believe this have missed half of Ayn Rand's message and are doing Objectivism completely wrong.

Not only did they miss one of the main points of John Galt's three hour long speech in Atlas Shrugged, but people who level this accusation against Objectivism as a whole missed it as well.

The point I'm referring to is that it takes two things for the looters to keep the men of ability down.

  • Someone has a wish that their rationality should tell them they can never have, and they do not discard this irrational wish.
  • Someone who has the ability to give the irrational man his wish fails to deny that of him.

When those two things happen, the man of ability has allowed the irrational man to fake his desired reality, and everything spirals downward from there.

The self-proclaimed Objectivists who say "It's not my fault!" aren't much, if at all, better than the looters in the book who also proclaim "It's not my fault!" They want their lives to be better, but rather than using their minds to make their lives better, they wallow in mediocrity and blame, not the men of ability, but the men of inability for their problems. Which is way more pathetic, in a way.

This raises the question of what positive attributes we can attempt to apply to this little sub-culture of aspiring rationalists. Shared goals? Collaborative action?

Some have already been implying heavily that rationality implies certain actions in the situation most of us find ourselves in, does it make sense to move forward with that?

Is success here just enabling the growth of strong rationalist individuals, who go forth and succeed in whatever they choose to do, or to shape a community, valuing rationality, which accomplishes things?

"And if we can't win, it means we weren't such good rationalists as we thought, and ought to try something different the next time around."

This attitude, that somehow, every single obstacle to success or happiness is solved by rationality, is a mistake, I think. People are not in control of the amount of opportunity they have, and i don't think being supremely rational is a sure way to triumph. Victims of slavery and car crashes are extreme examples, but I think there's more subtle situations in which no reasoned plan of action can straightforwardly help you "win."

Let's be fair to Ayn Rand

Well, let's. Other than secondary characters like The Fountainhead's Henry Cameron (a great architect whose spirit has been broken), which of Rand's heroes are like this?

Surely you would be rich and famous and high-status like you deserve if not for them, those unappreciative bastards and their conspiracy of mediocrity.

A fair question. But an old, bitter, un-achieving character isn't likely to inspire much heroic empathy and desire to emulate. So Rand didn't write John Galt that way; she wrote the villains that way.

The question is what happens when some real-world person takes John Galt as a role model. In the story he's not just a former great physicist, he's all buff and heroic and has his own little survivalist ranch and society actually falls down without him. But in reality...

So the answer to Arundelo's question would be "none of Rand's heroes are that way, while her villains are that way." Wouldn't such a choice by a writer generally indicate disapproval of such a trait? Particularly given Rand's theory of Romatic Art, I'd say that's a certainty in her case.

The question is what happens when some real-world person takes John Galt as a role model.

I have a rather limited sample of Objectivists that I have known sufficiently well to know that they in fact took Rand seriously. 3 people. They all turned out quite well.

What's your data?

I can't detect an actual case being made in your comments, though I think I see a lot of innuendo. Do you think you've made a clear and compelling case? Could you spell it out for me if you think you did?