Rationality, Transhumanism, and Mental Health

My name is Brent, and I'm probably insane.

I can perform various experimental tests to verify that I do not perform primate pack-bonding rituals correctly, which is about half of what we mean by "insane". This concerns me simply from a utilitarian perspective (separation from pack makes ego-depletion problems harder; it makes resources harder to come by; and it simply sucks to experience "from the inside"), but these are not the things that concern me most.

The thing that concerns me most is this:

What if the very tools that I use to make decisions are flawed?

I stumbled upon Bayesian techniques as a young child; I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to perform a lot of self-guided artificial intelligence "research" in Junior High and High School, due to growing up in a time and place when computers were utterly mysterious, so no one could really tell me what I was "supposed" to be doing with them - so I started making simple video games, had no opponents to play them against due to the aforementioned failures to correctly perform pack-bonding rituals, decided to create my own, became dissatisfied with the quality of my opponents, and suddenly found myself chewing on Hopfstaedter and Wiener and Minsky.

I'm filling in that bit of detail to explain that I have been attempting to operate as a rational intelligence for quite some time, so I believe that I've become very familiar with the kinds of "bugs" that I will tend to exhibit.

I've spent a very long time attempting to correct for my cognitive biases, edit out tendencies to seek comfortable-but-misleading inputs, and otherwise "force" myself to be rational, and often, the result is that my "will" will crack under the strain. My entire utility-table will suddenly flip on its head, and attempt to maximize my own self-destruction rather than allow me to continue to torture it with endlessly recursive, unsolvable problems that all tend to boil down to "you do not have sufficient social power, and humans are savage and cruel no matter how much you care about them."

Most of my energy is spent attempting to maintain positive, rational, long-term goals in the face of some kind of regedit-hack of my utility table itself, coming from somewhere in my subconscious that I can't seem to gain write-access to.

Clearly, the transhumanist solution would be to identify the underlying physical storage where the bug is occurring, and replace it with a less-malfunctioning piece of hardware.

Hopefully someday someone with more self-control, financial resources, and social resources than I will invent a method to do that, and I can get enough of a partial personectomy to create something viable with the remaining subroutines.

In the meantime, what is someone who wishes to be rational supposed to do, when the underlying hardware simply won't cooperate?

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I'm pretty sure you're doing something wrong now. You're being very vague and not giving any examples so I can't troubleshoot anywhere near precisely, but clearly you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and looking for the right sledgehammer for the job. You're not Augustine of Hippo; you may endorse a set of rules as the Sacred Laws Of Rationality That You Are A Really Bad Person If You Don't Follow, but if trying to follow them causes breakdowns, you're just wrong about the rules. Taboo "rational", and ask if each rule is a maintainable habit, possible to use explicitly in extraordinary circumstances, and if you actually want to do that. ("My life is worth exactly as much as some random stranger's" sounds nice, but nobody can actually follow that long-term.)

You don't say what kind of insane you are. You mention lack of social skills and that it's a big problem for you, but that's nearly orthogonal. For the first time in history, people are publishing useful guides to social life. Of course any oddity is going to make it harder for you, but go to groups that share your interests, and you'll find more people whose personality meshes with yours and fewer who go "It's not making eye contract in the exact pattern I want! Burn the witch!". It helps to sincerely like the people you're trying to befriend, but a little dishonest manipulation can go a long way too.

If you have other insanity-related problems, I suggest you ask a psychiatrist for help with the root cause, tackle each problem directly, or start a Less Wrong mental health support group (so far the current procedure is "whine loudly enough to attract Alicorn's compassion", which might be a bit hard on Alicorn). Those bouts of self-destruction might be due to pushing too hard in bad directions, but might have other origins too.

Less Wrong mental health support group (so far the current procedure is "whine loudly enough to attract Alicorn's compassion", which might be a bit hard on Alicorn)

"Ask Alicorn to put you in touch with Adelene" may be a viable alternative for chronic rather than acute cases. I'm pretty horrible at providing direct support, but I'm quite good at getting a feel for the shape of peoples' thought processes, both where they are and where they want to be, and using that information to connect them with resources that will help them move towards the latter. (My method is pretty slow, but it's also compatible with the use of other methods that are quicker, so long as you stay in touch so I can keep updating my understanding.) I don't follow LW much these days, though, so posting here and hoping I'll see it or dropping message in my PM box won't work to get you there, and Alicorn has my contact info.

I do not perform primate pack-bonding rituals correctly

Give three concrete examples from your life.

I will use this very post to illustrate!

You just asked, "give three concrete examples from your life."

My first instinct is that this is a challenge, an attempt to set me up as unreliable and "whiny" in front of the pack.

According to this instinct, if I fail to respond to you, you will have "called me out" - and by failing to respond, I will lose face.

Also according to this instinct, if I DO respond to you, no matter how I do so, you will manage to turn it around in such a way that I will appear to be lying or deliberately miscommunicating my experience for the sake of sympathy - and will again lose face.

My natural response to this instinct is to attempt to describe these examples in the most self-deprecatory way possible, but I know that any attempt to do so will cause me to seem contemptuously weak - and I will again lose face.

As I continue to process this dilemma, I attempt to work out the actual probabilities that any given decision I make will lead to a given outcome. However, as I do so, something internally pegs my "lose face" utility to +ERR.OVERFLOW, and the error cascades all the way through my multiplications and completely poisons the [utility*probability] sort.

Eventually, I just say "fuck it" and come clean to you that I'm having trouble answering your question due to an error. My instinct tells me that, in so doing, you will turn this around on me and I will again lose face. I start processing how I can explain to you that I'm having trouble answering your question, building different strategies for explanation and weighing their probable utility payoffs, but then the bug pops up again (or another, similar one) and pegs one or two of the outcome utilities to +ERR.OVERFLOW or -ERR.OVERFLOW (or sometimes even ERR.DIV0), and the whole [utility*probability] sort gets poisoned again.

Am I making any sense?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, your question scares me, and I'm not sure if it's a legitimate query for information or an attempt to "trip me up" socially, and THAT RIGHT THERE is the problem itself.

So here's to honesty, or something.

Oh man, I feel your pain. (Sorry, I meant: "Expression of sympathy and offer of alliance. Attempt to assert myself as a member of your tribe. Emphasis of my own experience in order to give additional weight to my advice, with the added bonus of gaining status in the community.")

Seriously, don't overthink. Yes, there are people whose every word and act conceals a hundred layers designed to raise themselves, lower you, and manipulate you, and who'll treat failure to answer each one perfectly as a personal insult. Your terrified analysis suggests that you've been around such people a lot. Don't hang out with those people. If you can't help it (coworkers, family), be irreproachable on the surface and ignore the deeper layers. Worst thing that'll happen is that they'll gossip behind your back, and horrifying as that thought is (What? It horrifies me!) it won't actually bring you harm.

Do think somewhat; you should be able to tell the difference between messages that mean "I don't feel like going bowling with you, but thanks" and messages that mean "I don't feel like going bowling with you, because I dislike you", to notice when someone is bored, to gauge and match the level of formality in a given situation. If and when this becomes natural, you might try reading a little deeper, and so on until you either plateau, become a master manipulator, or decide it's not worth the effort.

Think of it like buying a cup of coffee. There are a lot of questions here: If you make small talk, will that be appreciated or an annoyance? Would saying "joe" instead of "coffee" make you look cool or silly? If you don't have exact change, is paying with a $10 bill okay or rude? But none of these questions really matter; as long as you're vaguely in the ballpark, nobody will notice anything unusual, and if they do they'll forget it instantly. Social interaction in general is basically the same; learn a few simple rules, try to be nice and considerate, and don't dwell over small failures. Most people are not out to get you.

Your response suggests you have received a lot of negative feedback for your social interactions. Be careful not to overgeneralize those negative reactions to others. Especially don't overgeneralize from your interactions with your schoolmates, because the status games in school are not well correlated with achieving anything productive.

More generally, keep in mind that social ability is not a statistic (like Charisma on a RPG character sheet), it is a skill. Like all skills, it improves with practice. MixedNuts' advice to you is good, especially this post.

For whatever reason, being reflexive about social skills is extremely taboo in modern society. That means it is difficult for someone with social skill deficits to find someone what can provide helpful feedback for improvement. By contrast, a football player could listen to her coach for constructive criticism and suggestions on how to practice. But the fact that people don't talk about how to improve social skills does not mean improvement is impossible.

Just to note that attacking someone for lack of social skills can happen in families as well as in high school.

On LW, if something looks like a request for information, it's a safe bet that it means just that. And heck, you can't go wrong treating it like that, anyway. If it turns out it wasn't, the other person will be seen to be a troll, and they will lose face, and you'll have the moral high ground. I think that goes in general too, but it's certainly true here on LW, where the discussions are remarkably civilized.

I will attempt to take this advice at face-value until I accumulate sufficient evidence to the contrary, and follow it to the best of my ability given aforementioned hardware limitations.

And hence a pack-identification ritual, which I did not respond to correctly? And also a bona-fide request for information?

Shit, my recursion map just forked. N-dimensionally.

a pack-identification ritual, which I did not respond to correctly?

Going out on a limb here: Yes, correct. I would have failed it too, and I've been here for a year. People here tend not to care if you fail their pack-identification rituals, and will actually get a bit annoyed if you start trying to optimize for that.

In other words, it's not important that it's a pack-identification ritual.

(Disclaimer: There are packs that care a lot about rituals. My general philosophy is to avoid all such packs, because I suck at such rituals. I like LessWrong because even when people downvote me and otherwise disapprove of me, I've never had the sensation that the pack is trying to ostracize me or punish me for failure-to-observe-pack-rituals)

My first instinct is that this is a challenge, an attempt to set me up as unreliable and "whiny" in front of the pack.

According to this instinct, if I fail to respond to you, you will have "called me out" - and by failing to respond, I will lose face.

Also according to this instinct, if I DO respond to you, no matter how I do so, you will manage to turn it around in such a way that I will appear to be lying or deliberately miscommunicating my experience for the sake of sympathy - and will again lose face.

This response falsifies the hypothesis that you don't perform primate pack-bonding rituals, at least the way I interpreted it. These thoughts are standard human response, plus a habit for going meta.

The rest is just you going too meta, and not being pragmatic enough (use decision theory, specifically, compute value of information and don't assume you have infinite computing power).

Also, I know the feel that you are feeling, or at least I think I do. I sympathize.

As for the correct response to this specific worry, here's the procedure I'd want to use:

Case A: it's a query, shminix is playing at the zeroth level. Best idea: answer the question straight.

Case B: It's a fork, shminux is an adversary playing on higher levels, and LW is that kind of place (notice burdensome details). Now we have to consider what the utility loss of getting forked is, how likely it is you can get out of the fork, and how much computation that will take, and of course what the probability of this even being the situation.

Overall, I'd rate it very unlikely or alternatively very expensive to get out of such a fork. Let him take your knight (answer it straight), and if you're going to worry at all, do it before you get forked, not after. It's a loss, but a small one when compared to the stress and time of trying to escape.

If the intuitive feel for the disutility of losing face is too high (as you claim it is), you need to expose yourself to more lost face to learn intuitively that it's not so bad. Flooding works against aversions. Go make a name for youself on reddit, and then say a lot of stuid stuff, get downvoted to hell, and see if anything ever comes of it (nothing will).

Follow-up: I'm trying to sort through my memories and experiences to provide three concrete examples, and am realizing the more I try that I don't have a sufficiently concrete definition of "primate pack-bonding ritual" to actually discretize and present three examples.

Thank you for providing me the opportunity to realize this.

I'm going to need quite awhile to process the implications, but when I do, I will get back to you.

What few clues given above lead me to believe that if you were to fix your ability to perform "primate pack-bonding rituals" correctly, a lot of this would go away. We are social creatures, and it sounds like for all your rationalization, social interaction is a significant driver for you.

Assuming this is the case, the short answer is that those ritual skills are learnable, and there's a ton of material on how to do so out on the web. Cognitive therapy may also help; however, in the end, you're just going to have to get up, get out, experiment with rituals and fail a lot to figure out how they work. You can't just learn it reading from books and the web. You have to actually go out and go through the actions, just like learning a martial art.

That's what I did. I still view people as machinery, as you probably do. But they're at least interesting machinery, and I know the interfaces well enough to do interesting things with them, including get the positive feedback that helps me maintain my outlook.

What if the very tools that I use to make decisions are flawed?

Everybody's tools are flawed. This blog exists because it seems reasonable to believe that the tools are good enough to do bootstrapping so that the flaws are smaller.

I'm going to write about some things which have helped me which may or may not be of use to you. I've worked on compassion-- it's tempting for me to believe that I'm the only defective person in the universe, and then try to fix myself. Coming in with that attitude is part of the problem, maybe even most of it. I'm better off to the extent that I can view my current state with a neutral or (much harder) benevolent attitude and work from there.

Also, it helped to realize that my current state has seven billion years of universe behind it. I can change for the better, but whatever is wrong isn't some intrinsic personal defect, and it isn't all my mother's fault either.

Alternate explanation for "insanity": If your IQ is high enough, you're likely to have problems fitting in with others. Normally I wouldn't suggest high IQ as a reason for not fitting in since an IQ high enough to cause that problem occurs in less than 1% of the population. However, here you are posting on LessWrong, a place that is known for it's intelligent members. (See Yvain's surveys to discover that most claim a high enough IQ for the average to be in the 140's). Not only that, but if you were using Bayesian techniques as a child and experimenting with making AIs as a teen, I'd say you're very likely to be smarter than the average bear.

If you want to look into this further:

Try researching a concept called "socially optimal IQ range".

Check out this article by the Prometheus Society: The Outsiders

Consider reading this book: Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults

Research the term: Existential depression (common to gifted adults, and your inability to hack utility table complaint is reminiscent of this).

If you or someone reading this needs a concierge into the subject of gifted adults, I can be one. If the prospect of being flamed for claiming giftedness / looking into giftedness is a concern, use PM.

There's a playground for smart adults looking to meet their likes. It's called academia and it's full of shiny toys.

Alternate explanation for "insanity": If your IQ is high enough, you're likely to have problems fitting in with others.

Do you have a reference?

As far as I know, there is positive correlation beween social skills and IQ up to an IQ of about 120. There are claims that for a very high IQ (> 140) the correlation may be negative, but this is disputed.

I'm in "Halt, melt, and catch fire" mode right now regarding psychology knowledge and research in general.

I cannot give you anything good and I am questioning whether such a thing is possible in psychology right now. ):

I have a lot of experience interacting with gifted adults and have read a lot about them, so I think I have some useful insight when it comes to making the correct distinctions that help with untangling this controversy. First, there's a difference between feeling lonely and being unable to fit in socially. There's another gigantic difference between being unable to fit in and being able to fit in but only with a huge effort.

What I'm seeing is that most of the very gifted adults are able to fit in by putting in a lot of effort and hiding most of their thoughts and feelings (which would not make sense to others since their thoughts are often complex and difficult to explain and their feelings are often in reaction to complex thoughts), but they do not enjoy those social experiences which are so demanding of their energy, and so they end up lonely. The profoundly gifted people I've met are so frustrated by things like explaining across inferential distances that it's practically characteristic of them. Their way of dealing with the differences seems to be to reduce social contact and learn specialized social skills for interacting in environments that are unavoidable like workplaces. They often succeed with these specialized social skills in limited environments and usually prevent social disasters simply by staying quiet, not leaving the house, or avoiding social environments with people who aren't like minded. So, they have usually had coping mechanisms that work for them to prevent social ineptness. However, when it comes down to it, there's nothing that improving one's social skills can do to solve the problem of loneliness. The issue is not that people don't respect or like them, the problem is that people do not relate to them when they try to share their inner worlds. You can build one-way rapport by learning what your audience cares about and keeping your conversations within the boundaries of their comfort zone. If the audience cannot build rapport the other way you end up feeling lonely and misunderstood. This is what I'm seeing.

Sorry for the delay. I haven't memorized all my citations and it can be a bit of a pain to dig them up (I'm thinking about the best way to organize them right now) so I'm kind of burnt out on digging up citations right now which is resulting in some procrastination when answering comments like this.

From the description you've given, which doesn't give much to go on, it sounds like you have some, but not all, of the same problems I do (in my case stress-related anxiety and clinical depression, compounding mild comorbid Asperger's and dyspraxia).

What I'd recommend in this case is that you access cognitive behavioural therapy. It's the only psychiatric intervention that has been actually shown to have any long-term effects (short of dumping people full of antipsychotic drugs, which have far too many bad side-effects for me to ever recommend them). It's also very close to applied rationality, so it might fit your worldview and be more acceptable to you than other treatments would. From my own personal experience with it, it's not a panacea, but it is useful.

If you're in the US and poor, and thus can't access medical help, I would suggest learning some of the techniques from Zen Buddhism. I don't have much experience of this myself, but several friends who I trust have told me that the meditation techniques in Zen are very similar to a less-formalised version of CBT, and in some cases have helped them more. The podcasts at zencast.org have been very helpful to several people I know with problems like that.

Also, I am NOT a doctor and this is NOT meant to be medical advice that you should take without consulting one, and I am NOT accepting liability for anything you do, but I have seen suggestions that taking large doses of niacin -- large enough to cause flushing -- can help get rid of mild paranoia, anxiety and depression. My own experiences tend to bear this out, but it could well be a placebo effect.

And finally, this is DEFINITELY NOT IN ANY WAY A RECOMMENDATION, but there are several studies that suggest that the prescription-only drug ketamine, which is not licensed for this purpose, can provide long-term relief from depression and can also aid cognitive functioning. If you have a doctor who is willing to prescribe off-label, it may be worth discussing that with her, although it is very unlikely you'd get the prescription as ketamine is widely used as a recreational drug. I have no experience of it myself, unlike the other things I've mentioned here, so can't speak directly for its efficacy.

While this post is appreciated, this feels more like tactical advice than strategic. You're ultimately correct - the tactical details theoretically are between me and my psychiatrist or therapist (although you're also tactically correct in that I am in the US and poor, and hence have no psychiatrist or therapist).

But the question I'm trying to pose to the group is tailored more to the specific strengths of this group - which are less about "how do I be less crazy?" and more about "how should people who are crazy adjust the processes described on this site, so that they can attempt to work them around their crazy?"

... do you understand the distinction? Put this more metaphorically, we get that the hardware's toast, we've got a field repair ticket submitted, but in the meantime can we please get a software patch? Because this is kinda mission-critical.

My name is Brent, and I'm probably insane.

Chorus: Hi, Brent.

what is someone who wishes to be rational supposed to do, when the underlying hardware simply won't cooperate?

Being aware of the biases, yet unable to adapt your reasoning to compensate, seems to be contradictory. When you say "I know I only think X because of bias Y, so my actual belief should be Z", you seem to already have solved the problem in that instance, by just switching them out (in lambda calculus: E[X:=Z]).

The unknown unknowns are in my opinion the crux of the problem: those biases you did not (yet) recognize in specific situations, regardless of how well you trained yourself to reflect upon your own reasoning. Due to the nature of the problem, we wouldn't even be aware of how much progress we made in recognizing biases, and how much is left to be done. (Comparing the variance among reasoning agents would help: Based on Aumann, we can in principle eliminate - or at least notice the existence of - biases that we do not share, but two agents with a shared kind of bias would still converge on the same belief and thus be oblivious to it*).

What do? Do the best with the hand dealt to you, e.g. if it were the case (as a cosmic joke) that Occam's Razor didn't hold true for vetting ToE's after all, too bad. At least we did our very best then.

* I'm not certain this is a formal result, it should be the case for a majority of cases. Comments welcome.

This may be a stupid question: How old are you? From the pattern of your posts I seem to detect a vague hint of an American high school. Please observe: American schools are severely broken. (1) Inability to function in such a place is not necessarily a sign of insanity. Consider whether, perhaps, you may simply be surrounded by hormonal teenagers with nothing better to do than assert idiotic status hierarchies. If you're not already familiar with it, Paul Graham's essay on nerds may be relevant to your interests.

That aside: Are you sure you are really trying to be rational, as opposed to performing some ritual of cognition? It's hard to use oneself as a control group, you certainly cannot do so double-blindly, but what happens if you drop your attempts at rationality and act without thought, or with less thought than you are currently using? For all you know, that may give even worse results; but at any rate it seems to me that your problem is desperately in need of a control, or baseline. When you debug, it's no use saying that the error must be somewhere in module X. Comment out module X and see if the crash still happens.

Footnote 1: I read this on the Internet, so it must be true.

He is older than 23 per this comment. But reading his posts, either you have some extremely high standards for high school students or I am terrible at estimating someone's level of education. (Unless you were measuring emotional maturity somehow).

In any case, I would find it pretty disheartening if someone asked me if I was in high school in a post about my own mental health. I'm sure you didn't mean to be rude, but I find it hard to believe that this response would be anything but patronizing or insulting to anyone who isn't a high school student.