The Contrarian Status Catch-22

It used to puzzle me that Scott Aaronson still hasn't come to terms with the obvious absurdity of attempts to make quantum mechanics yield a single world.

I should have realized what was going on when I read Scott's blog post "The bullet-swallowers" in which Scott compares many-worlds to libertarianism.  But light didn't dawn until my recent diavlog with Scott, where, at 50 minutes and 20 seconds, Scott says:

"What you've forced me to realize, Eliezer, and I thank you for this:  What I'm uncomfortable with is not the many-worlds interpretation itself, it's the air of satisfaction that often comes with it."
        -- Scott Aaronson, 50:20 in our Bloggingheads dialogue.

It doesn't show on my face (I need to learn to reveal my expressions more, people complain that I'm eerily motionless during these diavlogs) but at this point I'm thinking, Didn't Scott just outright concede the argument?  (He didn't; I checked.)  I mean, to me this sounds an awful lot like:

Sure, many-worlds is the simplest explanation that fits the facts, but I don't like the people who believe it.

And I strongly suspect that a lot of people out there who would refuse to identify themselves as "atheists" would say almost exactly the same thing:

What I'm uncomfortable with isn't the idea of a god-free physical universe, it's the air of satisfaction that atheists give off.

If you're a regular reader of Robin Hanson, you might essay a Hansonian explanation as follows:

Although the actual state of evidence favors many-worlds (atheism), I don't want to affiliate with other people who say so.  They act all brash, arrogant, and offensive, and tend to believe and advocate other odd ideas like libertarianism.  If I believed in many-worlds (atheism), that would make me part of this low-prestige group.

Or in simpler psychology:

I don't feel like I belong with the group that believes in many-worlds (atheism).

I think this might form a very general sort of status catch-22 for contrarian ideas.

When a correct contrarian idea comes along, it will have appealing qualities like simplicity and favorable evidence (in the case of factual beliefs) or high expected utility (in the case of policy proposals).  When an appealing contrarian idea comes along, it will be initially supported by its appealing qualities, and opposed by the fact that it seems strange and unusual, or any other counterintuitive aspects it may have.

So initially, the group of people who are most likely to support the contrarian idea, are the people who are - among other things - most likely to break with their herd in support of an idea that seems true or right.

These first supporters are likely to be the sort of people who - rather than being careful to speak of the new idea in the cautious tones prudent to supplicate the many high-status insiders who believe otherwise - just go around talking as if the idea had a very high probability, merely because it seems to them like the simplest explanation that fits the facts.  "Arrogant", "brash", and "condescending" are some of the terms used to describe people with this poor political sense.

The people first to speak out in support of the new idea will be those less sensitive to conformity; those with more confidence in their sense of truth or rightness; those less afraid of speaking out.

And to the extent these are general character traits, such first supporters are also more likely to advocate other contrarian beliefs, like libertarianism or strident atheism or cryonics.

And once that happens, the only people who'll be willing to believe the idea will be those willing to tar themselves by affiliating with a group of arrogant nonconformists - on top of everything else!

tl;dr:  When a counterintuitive new idea comes along, the first people to support it will be contrarians, and so the new idea will become associated with contrarian traits and beliefs, and people will become even more reluctant to believe it because that would affiliate them with low-prestige people/traits/beliefs.


A further remark on "airs of satisfaction":  Talk about how we don't understand the Born Probabilities and there are still open questions in QM, and hence we can't accept the no-worldeaters interpretation, sounds a good deal like the criticism given to atheists who go around advocating the no-God interpretation.  "But there's so much we don't know about the universe!  Why are you so self-satisfied with your disbelief in God?"  There's plenty we don't understand about the universe, but that doesn't mean that future discoveries are likely to reveal Jehovah any more than they're likely to reveal a collapse postulate.

Furthermore, atheists are more likely than priests to hear "But we don't know everything about the universe" or "What's with this air of satisfaction?"  Similarly, it looks to me like you can get away with speaking out strongly in favor of collapse postulates and against many-worlds, and the same people won't call you on an "air of satisfaction" or say "but what about the open questions in quantum mechanics?"

This is why I think that what we have here is just a sense of someone being too confident in an unusual belief given their assigned social status, rather than a genuine sense that we can't be too confident in any statement whatever.  The instinctive status hierarchy treats factual beliefs in pretty much the same way as policy proposals.  Just as you need to be extremely high-status to go off and say on your own that the tribe should do something unusual, there's a similar dissonance from a low-status person saying on their own to believe something unusual, without careful compromises with other factions.  It shows the one has no sense of their appropriate status in the hierarchy, and isn't sensitive to other factions' interests.

The pure, uncompromising rejection merited by hypotheses like Jehovah or collapse postulates, socially appears as a refusal to make compromises with the majority, or a lack of sufficient humility when contradicting high-prestige people.  (Also priests have higher social status to start with; it's understood that their place is to say and advocate these various things; and priests are better at faking humility while going on doing whatever they were going to do anyway.)  The Copenhagen interpretation of QM - however ridiculous - is recognized as a conventional non-strange belief, so no one's going to call you insufficiently humble for advocating it.  That would mark them as the contrarians.

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Right. This is why I think it's under-ratedly important for contrarians who actually believe in the potential efficacy of their beliefs to not seem like contrarians. If you truly believe that your ideas are underrepresented then you will much better promote them by being appearing generally "normal" and passing off the underrepresented idea as a fairly typical part of your ostensibly coherent worldview. I will admit that this is more challenging.

Great debate starter.

One quibble, I don't think that it's even ostensibly normal to have or aspire to have a coherent worldview.

Couldn't do it if I tried for a hundred years. Not disagreeing, though.

Couldn't do it if I tried for a hundred years. Not disagreeing, though.

Actually, I'd say that you do a much better job at this than many contrarians on the Internet, MW notwithstanding. At least, you have the "passing off the underrepresented idea as a fairly typical part of your ostensibly coherent worldview" part down.

If you truly believe that your ideas are underrepresented then you will much better promote them by being appearing generally "normal" and passing off the underrepresented idea as a fairly typical part of your ostensibly coherent worldview.

Couldn't do it if I tried for a hundred years.

Something interesting may be going on here.

Consider the question, "Could you appear generally 'normal' and pass off the underrepresented idea as a fairly typical part of your ostensibly coherent worldview, if the fate of the world depended on it?"

I could imagine the same person giving two different answers, depending on how they understood the question to be meant.

One answer would be, "Yes: if I knew the fate of the world depended on it, then I would appear normal".

The other would be, "No, because the fate of the world could not depend on my appearing normal; in fact the fate of the world would depend on my not appearing normal".

(A third possible answer would be about one form of akrasia: "In that case I would believe that the fate of the world depended on my appearing normal, but I wouldn't alieve it enough to be able to appear normal.")

This seems psychologically parallel to the situation of the question about "Would you kill babies if it was intrinsically the right thing to do?". One answer is, "Yes: if I knew the intrinsically right thing to do was to kill babies, then I would kill babies". But the other is, "No, because killing babies would not be the intrinsically right thing to do; in fact the intrinsically right thing to do would be to not kill babies". (The third answer would be, "In that case I would believe that killing babies was intrinsically the right thing to do, but I wouldn't alieve it enough to be able to kill babies".)

Maybe the important question is: what would the meaning be of the imagined statement, "the fate of the world would depend on my not appearing normal"?

For the statement "the intrinsically right thing to do would be to not kill babies", one possible meaning would be conceptual and epistemic: "I have thought about possible ethical and meta-ethical positions, and it was impossible for killing babies to be the right thing to do." Another possible meaning would be non-epistemic and intuitive: "If someone has an argument that killing babies is the intrinsically right thing to do, then from priors, I and others would both estimate that the chances are too high that they had made a mistake in ethics or meta-ethics. If I were to agree that they could be right, that would be a concession that would be both too harmful directly and too costly to me socially."

Similarly, for the statement "the fate of the world would depend on my not appearing normal", one possible meaning would be conceptual and epistemic: "I have thought about my abilities, and I could do at most two of 'value appearing normal', 'be psychologically able to privately reason to truthful beliefs', and 'have enough mental energy left over for other work', but it was impossible for me to do all three." Another meaning would non-epistemic and intuitive: "If someone has an argument that it would be good on net to appear normal and not contrarian, then from priors, I and others would both estimate that the chances are high that they had made a motivated mistake about how hard it is to have good epistemology. If I were to agree that they could be right, that would be a concession that would be both too harmful for me directly, and too costly socially as an understood implicit endorsement of that kind of motivated mistake."

Use the try harder, Luke.

It's a good link. But I would strongly recommend Eliezer did not try harder to do this. Some considerations:

  • Eliezer is a terrible politician. Ok, he can get by on a high IQ and plenty of energy. But if you are considering comparative advantage Eliezer should no more devote himself to political advocacy than he should create himself a car out of iron ore.
  • Apart from details of presentation the important thing to do is be conformist in all areas except the one in which they make their move. This is a significant limitation on what you can achieve, particularly when what you are attempting to achieve involves interacting with the physical reality and not just the social reality.
  • The Sesame Street approach to belief (one of these things is not like the other ones) is a status optimisation, not necessarily an optimal way to increase the influence of an idea. It involves spending years defending the positions of high status individuals and carefully avoiding all contrarian positions until you have the prestige required to make a play for your own territory. Then, you select the work of (inevitably lower status) innovators in a suitable area. Present the ideas yourself and use your prestige to ensure that your terminology becomes adopted and your papers most frequently cited. The innovators can then choose between marginalization, supplication or moving to a new field. If any innovator happens to come up with ideas that challenge your position and you dismiss them as arrogant and smug and award status to others who, by way of supplication, do likewise.

Does this help make a contrarian idea mainstream? Perhaps. But maybe the status exploitation of ideas market is efficient and your participation makes no particular difference. Either way, I consider gaining power in this manner useful for achieving Eliezer's aims only in the same way it would be useful for him to gain power through selling stationary or conquering a small nation. Possibly instrumentally useful but far from comparatively advantageous.

This only works well if you're really high status in the first place. Therefore what someone who reads Andy's comment should try to do would be to bootstrap the memetic fitness of their idea via adoption by progressively higher status people until you snag a Dawkins. The way to do this isn't obviously to try to appear especially high status oneself; I suspect a strong method would be to appear just high enough status so as to spam as many moderate-status people as possible with reasonably optimized memes and rely on a halfway decent infection rate. The disease would thus become endemic and hopefully reach fixation. One way to reach that stage would be to become high status oneself, but I'm guessing it'd be more effective to predict who will soon become high status and talk to them while they're still approachable.

(The above may be obvious but it was useful for me to think through such a memetic strategy explicitly.)

One way to reach that stage would be to become high status oneself, but I'm guessing it'd be more effective to predict who will soon become high status and talk to them while they're still approachable.

This ability is one that is rather useful for the goal of gaining status, too. (As well as being reflected in the mating strategy of young females.)

But, I think, you'd better be vocal, visible and brash to some extent or you risk science advancing by funerals. If someone believes that replacing status quo beliefs with a correct contratrian belief is very important then IMO her optimal strategy will be somewhere between total crackpotness and total passivity.

Most smug contrarians have many contrarian beliefs, not just one. If we average over all the various beliefs of smug contrarians, what level of accuracy will we find? (Could we find data on smug contrarians from a century ago?) I suspect accuracy will be far too low to justify such smugness. Even if we limit our attention to high IQ smug contrarians, I suspect accuracy will also be low. Yes the typical objection to smugness is probably to the cockiness of asserting higher status than one has been granted, but the typical reason people are smugly contrarian is also probably wanting to defy current status rankings. You can't assume that because they are hypocrites and disagree with you that you are not a hypocrite.

Once again, I think that for smart (e.g. made good arguments, e.g. arguments that contemporaries who also made good arguments [recursive but sound] couldn't poke holes in) smug contrarians of a century ago this is simply wrong, though it needs a lot of cashing out in specific detailed claims.

The most important point in this comment was buried towards the end.

"wanting to defy current status rankings" is an incentive; an incentive that the original article doesn't pay enough attention to.

Adding a rhetorical concession to the original article, something like: "As someone who is, academically, less-credentialed, upsetting the credentials hierarchy would be be to my advantage. My subconscious may be twisting my beliefs in a self-serving direction. However [... and so on...]" might make the original article stronger.

Adding a rhetorical concession to the original article, something like: "As someone who is, academically, less-credentialed, upsetting the credentials hierarchy would be be to my advantage. My subconscious may be twisting my beliefs in a self-serving direction. However [... and so on...]" might make the original article stronger.

That would be fake humility used for the purposes of supplication, not improving the strength of the article. The main use of such an addition would be to demonstrate Contrarian Status Catch 22b. If you are asked why you disagree with a high status person and your answer is not "I was being smug and arrogant and I must be wrong" then you are being smug and arrogant.

The effectiveness of this ploy explains why "How do explain the fact that disagrees with you?" is such a popular form of one-upmanship. It works even when there is a good answer (and usually even when doesn't disagree).

The quantum interpretation debate is merely the illustrative starting point for this article, so perhaps it is boorish of me to focus on it. But...

the obvious absurdity of attempts to make quantum mechanics yield a single world.

Even if some form of many worlds is correct, this is going too far.

Eliezer, so far as I can see, in your life you have gone from a belief in objective-collapse theories, derived from Penrose, to a belief in many worlds, derived perhaps from your extropian peers; and you always pose the theoretical choice as a choice between "collapse" and "no-collapse". You do not seem to have ever seriously considered - for example - whether the wavefunction is not real at all, but simply a construct like a probability distribution.

There are at least two ways of attempting "to make quantum mechanics yield a single world" which are obviously not absurd: zigzag interpretations and quantum causal histories. Since these hyperbolic assertions of yours about the superiority and obviousness of many-worlds frequently show up in your discourses on rationality, you really need at some point to reexamine your thinking on this issue. Perhaps you have managed to draw useful lessons for yourself even while getting it wrong, or perhaps there are new lessons to be found in discovering how you got to this point, but you are getting it wrong.

We have seemingly "fundamentally unpredictable" events at exactly the point where ordinary quantum mechanics predicts the world ought to split, and there's no way to have those events take place in a single global world without violating Special Relativity. Leaving aside other considerations such as having the laws of physical causality be local in the configuration space, the interpretation of the above evidence is obvious and there's simply no reason whatsoever at all to privilege the hypothesis of a single world. I call it for many-worlds. It's over.

Assuming collapse is quantitatively unlike assuming the existence of God. The collapse postulate is extremely unlikely a priori, in terms of the usual probabilities humans deal with, but the order of magnitude of unlikeliness is not even in the same order of magnitude as for an intelligent creator. Collapse is easy to describe (if you are careful and use thermodynamic degrees of freedom rather than consciousness to check when it will happen) and consistent with all observations. Of course MWI is way simpler, so I would bet on it against overwhelming odds; so would Scott Aaronson. That said, we still have huge unexplained things (the Born probabilities; the coexistence of GR and quantum) whose improbability a priori is very large compared to the gap between many worlds and collapse. So it is conceivable that we could discover a formulation with collapse which accounts for the Born probabilities and which is simpler than any formulation without collapse. I would bet anything against this, but it is certainly more likely than discovering that the world is flat or that God exists.

Human experience with quantum mechanics has been confined to experiments with extremely low entanglement. The question we are asking is: do the laws of physics we have observed so far continue to hold up in the high entanglement limit? This is very much analogous to asking: do the laws of physics we have observed so far continue to hold up in the high energy limit? Even if you expect the answer to be yes, there is broad consensus among physicists that investigating the question is worthwhile. I also suspect that if you knew more physics you would be less confident in your position.

(I recently took a class from Scott Aaronson which caused me to stop being confused about quantum mechanics very effectively and made me understand precisely how obvious MWI is. I think that his pedagogy is one of the most powerful forces in the world right now for getting students to understand quantum mechanics and see that MWI is obvious. I think you are basically manufacturing disagreement, which you can do successfully mostly because Scott Aaronson expresses himself less precisely than you do.)

What I'm uncomfortable with isn't the idea of a god-free physical universe, it's the air of satisfaction that atheists give off.

There are many who are uncomfortable with the air of satisfaction that the faithful give off. I'm not convinced there's an asymmetry here.

The instinctive status hierarchy treats factual beliefs in pretty much the same way as policy proposals.

Bingo. Like I've harped on and on about, humans don't naturally decouple beliefs from values, or ought from is. If an ought (esp. involving distribution of resources ) hinges on an "is", it's too often the "is" that gets adjusted, self-servingly, rather than the ought.

Take note, Wei_Dai and everyone who uses could-should-agents as models of humans.

I came up with quote for a closely related issue:

"Don't let the fact that idiots agree with you be the sole thing that makes you change your mind, else all you'll have gained is a different set of idiots who agree with you."

Naive people (particularly contrarians) put into a situation where they aren't sure which ideas are truly "in" or "out" or "popular" may become highly confused and find themselves switching sides frequently. After joining a "side", then being agreed with by people whose arguments were poor in support of something good, they find themselves making an argument like "Wow. So many idiots support this! There's no way this can be good." only to find out after switching sides again that the same thing keeps happening. Why? It's because there are likely complete fools who support every cause you might consider good.

Bottom line: consider arguments on their merits, and avoid automatically thinking that they're bad (or good) simply because of who believes them or the (bad) arguments made on behalf of the idea. That's difficult, but if you don't, you wind up with situations similar to Eliezer's.

As the post is written, Eliezer seems too quick to presume that if people do not want to affiliate with a belief because of the low status of folks who hold that belief, that must mean those people admit that the evidence favors the belief. Yes if the belief happens to be correct then having the wrong sort of early enthusiasts will sadly discourage others from accepting a correct belief. But this same process will also play out if the belief is wrong.

Note that not all new beliefs first gain the interest of low status folks - many new beliefs are first championed by high status groups. So we should ask: what sorts of beliefs tend to be first championed by low status folks? If those beliefs tend to be less true on average than the beliefs first championed by high status folks, then the usual status moves would actually make epistemic sense.

I'd like details here. The second paragraph seems basically false to me, though vague enough that it's not clearly false and specific examples would be of some use. Relative status hasn't been discussed, for instance. I'm also not sure what we are counting as a 'new belief'. The lowest status folks almost never advocate new beliefs.