How to always have interesting conversations

One of the things that makes Michael Vassar an interesting person to be around is that he has an opinion about everything. If you locked him up in an empty room with grey walls, it would probably take the man about thirty seconds before he'd start analyzing the historical influence of the Enlightenment on the tradition of locking people up in empty rooms with grey walls.

Likewise, in the recent LW meetup, I noticed that I was naturally drawn to the people who most easily ended up talking about interesting things. I spent a while just listening to HughRistik's theories on the differences between men and women, for instance. There were a few occasions when I engaged in some small talk with new people, but not all of them took very long, as I failed to lead the conversation into territory where one of us would have plenty of opinions.

I have two major deficiencies in trying to mimic this behavior. One, I'm by nature more of a listener than speaker. I usually prefer to let other people talk so that I can just soak up the information being offered. Second, my native way of thought is closer to text than speech. At best, I can generate thoughts as fast as I can type. But in speech, I often have difficulty formulating my thoughts into coherent sentences fast enough and frequently hesitate.

Both of these problems are solvable by having a sufficiently well built-up storage of cached thoughts that I don't need to generate everything in real time. On the occasions when a conversations happens to drift into a topic I'm sufficiently familiar with, I'm often able to overcome the limitations and contribute meaningfully to the discussion. This implies two things. First, that I need to generate cached thoughts in more subjects than I currently have. Seconds, that I need an ability to more reliably steer conversation into subjects that I actually do have cached thoughts about.

Below is a preliminary "conversational map" I generated as an exercise. The top three subjects - the weather, the other person's background (job and education), people's hobbies - are classical small talk subjects. Below them are a bunch of subjects that I feel like I can spend at least a while talking about, and possible paths leading from one subject to another. My goal in generating the map is to create a huge web of interesting subjects, so that I can use the small talk openings to bootstrap the conversation into basically anything I happen to be interested in.

This map is still pretty small, but it can be expanded to an arbitrary degree. (This is also one of the times when I wish my netbook had a bigger screen.) I thought that I didn't have very many things that I could easily talk with people about, but once I started explicitly brainstorming for them, I realized that there were a lot of those.

My intention is to spend a while generating conversational charts like this and then spend some time fleshing out the actual transitions between subjects. The benefit from this process should be two-fold. Practice in creating transitions between subjects will make it easier to generate such transitions in real time conversations. And if I can't actually come up with anything in real time, I can fall back to the cache of transitions and subjects that I've built up.

Naturally, the process needs to be guided by what the other person shows an interest in. If they show no interest in some subject I mention, it's time to move the topic to another cluster. Many of the subjects in this chart are also pretty inflammable: there are environments where pretty much everything in the politics cluster should probably be kept off-limits, for instance. Exercise your common sense when building and using your own conversational charts.

(Thanks to Justin Shovelain for mentioning that Michael Vassar seems to have a big huge conversational web that all his discussions take place in. That notion was one of the original sources for this idea.)

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I have a lot of trouble finding the motivation to talk with people in real time. I keep wishing that they would write down their ideas as a blog post or such, so I can read it and think about it at my leisure, with Internet access handy to check out any factual claims, etc., and figure out whether what they're saying makes any sense.

As far as I can tell, most people, while engaging in real-time conversations, do not feel this discomfort of having insufficient time and resources to verify the other participant's claims (or for that matter, to make sure that one's own speech is not erroneous). Is it because they are too credulous, and haven't developed an instinctive skepticism of every new idea that they hear? Or do they just not take the other person's words seriously (i.e., "in one ear, out the other")?

If you aren't afraid of making mistakes you can learn and grow MUCH faster than if you are.

If you aren't afraid of noticing when you have made mistakes you can learn and grow MUCH MUCH faster than if you are.

The main thing though is that once you have learned an average amount the more you learn the less typical your thought patterns will be. If you bother to learn a lot your thought patterns will be VERY atypical. Once this happens, it becomes wildly unlikely that anyone talking with you for more than a minute without feedback will still be saying anything useful. Only conversation provides rapid enough feedback to make most of what the other person says relevant. (think how irrelevant most of the info in a typical pop-science book is because you can't indicate to the author every ten seconds that you understand and that they can move on to the next point)

Let me try a Hansonian explanation: conversation is not about exchanging information. It is about defining and reinforcing social bonds and status hierarchies. You don't chit-chat about the weather because you really want to consider how recent local atmospheric patterns relate to long-run trends, you do it to show that you care about the other person. If you actually cared about the weather, you would excuse yourself and consult the nearest meteorologist.

Written communication probably escapes this mechanism - the mental machinery for social interaction is less involved, and the mental machinery for analytical judgment has more room to operate. This probably happens because there was no written word in the evolutionary context, so we didn't evolve to apply our social interaction machinery to it. A second reason is that written communication is relatively easily divorced from the writer - you can encounter a written argument over vast spatial or temporal separation - so the cues that kick the social brain into gear are absent or subdued. The result, as you point out, it is easier to critically engage with a written argument than a spoken one.

You don't chit-chat about the weather because you really want to consider how recent local atmospheric patterns relate to long-run trends, you do it to show that you care about the other person.

No, you chat about the weather because it allows both parties to become comfortable and pick up the pace of the conversation to something more interesting. Full-on conversations don't start in a vacuum. In a worst case scenario, you talk about the weather because it's better than both of you staring at the ground until someone else comes along.

You seem to have an oddly narrow view of human communication. Have you considered the following facts?

  • In many sorts of cooperative efforts, live conversation (possibly aided by manual writing and drawing) enables rapid exchange of ideas that will converge onto the correct conclusion more quickly than written communication. Think e.g. solving a math problem together with someone.

  • In many cases, human conversations have the goal of resolving some sort of conflict, in the broad Schellingian sense of the term. Face-to-face communication, with all the clues it provides to people's inner thoughts and intentions, can greatly facilitate the process of finding and agreeing upon a solution acceptable to all parties.

  • A good bullshit detector heuristic is usually more than enough to identify claims that can't be taken at face value, and even when red flags are raised, often it's enough to ask your interlocutor to provide support for them and see if the answer is satisfactory. You'll rarely be in a situation where your interlocutors are so hostile and deceptive that they would be lying to your face about the evidence they claim to have seen. (Even in internet discussions, it's not often that I have to consult references to verify other people's claims. Most of my googling consists of searching for references to support my own claims that I expect others could find suspicious or unclear, so I could link to the supporting material preemptively.)

  • Various signaling elements of live communication are highly entertaining, especially when coupled with eating, drinking, and other fun activities that go pleasantly with a conversation. This aspect is impossible to reproduce in writing. Of course, this can be distracting when topics are discussed that require a great level of concentration and logical rigor, though even then the fun elements can make it easier to pull off the hard mental effort. But when it comes to less mentally demanding topics, it's clearly a great plus.

  • Finally, when the conversation isn't about solving some predetermined problem, the environment around you can provide interesting topics for discussion, which is clearly impossible if you're just sitting and staring at the monitor.

most people, while engaging in real-time conversations, do not feel this discomfort of having insufficient time and resources to verify the other participant's claims (or for that matter, to make sure that one's own speech is not erroneous).

Conversation is not about information.

Wow. I get involved in interesting conversations with some frequency; I don't think it's because I avoid verification or am too credulous. I think your explanations are a false dichotomy.

First, a lot of conversations involve expertise that I don't have, and I find interesting. Jobs that are not mine are often interesting; I usually try to ask about what things about someone else's job are fun or interesting.

I'm always happy to talk about my job; being a prosecutor means you've got a storehouse of stories.

In conversations where I am relatively equally situated with my counterpart as far as knowledge, it's pretty easy to disagree while having a great conversation. I met a guy in September of '08 after internet discussions on a topic unrelated to politics, and we ended up discussing Biden-Palin for two hours. It was a really fantastic conversation, and we voted opposite ways in the election.

We did this because we conceded points that were true, and we weren't on The Only Right Team of Properness; we were talking about ideas and facts that we mostly both knew. We also didn't have our head in the sand. And when one of us gave a factual statement outside the others' knowledge, the other tended to accept it (I told the story of the missing pallets of hundred dollar bills, which he hadn't heard.)

Now, I've certainly corrected false statements of fact in conversation (ranging in tone from, "Are you sure about that?" to "That's verifiably false.") I try not to make false statements of fact, but I have been wrong, and I make it a point to admit wrongness when I'm wrong. (In some circles, given my general propensity for being right and my assertion of a general propensity for being right, this leads to much rejoicing, on the order of Sir Robin's minstrels getting eaten.)

But there's something really fun about electric conversations that I think you're missing here. Fun and funny conversations.... I couldn't live well without them. And I'm not too credulous. And I take other people - well, many other people - seriously.

--JRM

This is related to a crazy idea I once had of preparing a "canned conversation" or a conversation tree that you could use to start a conversation with a random person on the subway and walk away leaving them a singularitarian.

This seems like something that natural conversationalists already do intuitively. They have a broad range of topic about which they can talk comfortably (either because they are knowledgeable about the specific subjects or because they have enough tools to carry on a conversation even in areas with which they are unfamiliar), and they can steer the conversation around these topics until they find one that their counterpart can also talk comfortably about. Bad conversationalists either aren't comfortable talking about many subjects, are bad at transitioning from one subject to another, or can't sense or don't care when their counterpart doesn't care about a given topic.

The flip side of this is that there are 3 ways of improving one's conversational ability: learning more about more subjects, practicing transitions between various topics, and learning the cues for when one's counterpart is bored or uninterested by the current topic. Kaj focuses on the second of these, but I think the other two strategies ought not be forgotten. It's no use learning to steer the conversation when there are no areas of overlapping interest to steer to, or when you can't recognize whether you are in one or not.

This is actually great advice. Not to scare anyone away (since I know the point is to have interesting conversation....), but the techniques discussed are essentially identical to what they teach during sorority recruitment practice. (I assume it's the same for fraternities, not that anyone cares). During recruitment, each girl will talk to hundreds of potential recruits in a short amount of time and has to be a very skilled conversationalist in order to assess the personality and interests of the other person. You're taught to steer very basic small talk ("What's your major?" "Where are you from?") into directions to find something unique and interesting about the person, and you only have a couple minutes to do it. They practice this for many, many hours a day leading up to recruitment. After a few weeks of this, you really can talk to anybody about anything.

The point of the post is to make conversations interesting, so you need to be able to steer the talk from mundane to something better, without making the other person feel like they're being pulled to one of your pet topics. Best way to do this is practice. Improv comedy is actually a related (and equally practicable) skill, interestingly enough...

I've heard of a similar strategy once discussed as part of pickup, I believe - I can only pull up a vague memory right now, but the thought was something along the lines of this. If a woman says she "just moved away from her family in San Francisco to have more freedom," each word of that can be a hook into an interesting conversation. What was moving like? What's her family like? Why did she want to move away from them? What's it like in San Francisco and how is it different here? What kind of freedom was she looking for? etc.

I've been working on using that type of conversation as well to avoid awkward pauses and keep interesting conversations going.

As Dale Carnegie says: Ask questions and get the other person talking. People love to talk and so the great conversationalist is really the great polite inquisitioner and listener.

Writing out a list of topics and connections is good but it's only one part of a conversation. You should also consider various reasons for having a conversation. For instance: passing the time, relieving anxiety, developing a relationship, maintaining a relationship, exchanging information, keeping updated on important information, debating a substantive point, getting someone to relax before asking them for something, being polite, making someone feel welcome, resolving a conflict. And when people have different goals for a conversation, it can be uncomfortable. If someone starts talking when they are nervous and you want to discuss the finer points of evolution, both people will get annoyed. When you are nervous, you want to talk about inane things because they are simple and an easy distraction; talking about science might be too complicated and compound your anxiety. Similarly, if you are really in the mood to talk complex subjects, you don't want to talk about irrelevant, silly things and can get annoyed because the other person has nothing to offer. (Of course, some people might find talking about science comforting, even if you find it boring. There is no fixed relationship between the inane/serious topic scale and the frivolous/deep conversation scale.)

So, you should develop your ability to know why you and the other person each want to have a conversation. Moreover, you should improve your ability to engage in various types of conversation. Often times, if you start a conversation on their terms, they will get comfortable with you and later on have the conversation you want.

You also have to think of conversation as a bargain between two people. You have a set of topics and conversation types you like/are strong at/want to do and the other person has hers. As with any negotiation, you have to work towards a mutually acceptable compromise. Of course, expanding your list of topics is helpful, because it increases the odds you will find common ground for someone, but your concept map does not necessarily help you quickly find something in common to talk about with another person.

Hey, not to sound intimidating or anything, but it's a sad fact that while Michael Vassar and I have gigantic webs of precomputed original ideas, we can also generate original ideas in real time.

Sort-of. I can generate original ideas in real time IF by real time you mean 'thinking about my ideas when I'm speaking and half thinking half listening when the other person is speaking". That's not the best conversational dynamic though. It's better when I actually allow/create pauses between listening to the other person and thinking (the opposite dynamic from my more common mode of interrupting the other person). If my thoughts are a few seconds ahead of my words much of the time when I'm talking I'm more likely to be able to spare enough attention to notice the other person's feelings. Likewise, if I'm fully listening to them I'm more likely to catch nuances and deepen my understanding faster. Also, my thoughts are partially transparent. If I'm not fully listening the person is likely to get that impression, not feel understood, make less effort to understand me, and waste conversational time by repetition in order to ensure that they are understood.

A gigantic web of precomputed ideas also has a bigger border area where you can generate new ideas with relatively lightweight combination and modification of the existing ones.

My advice, if you want to become a good conversationalist, is just to crank up the amount of time you spend having conversations. If you are really serious, you could consciously review conversations after the fact, to try to find patterns and see where you could have improved.

What's the link between visiting fellows and the weather?

My advice, if you want to become a good conversationalist, is just to crank up the amount of time you spend having conversations.

I can think of three people I know for whom that does not work. Not because they do not think they have opportunities for conversations, not even because they have opportunities but do not take advantage of them, but because they do, and put a great deal of effort into it, and yet I can see that it is not working for them. They are getting little in return for their efforts, because they are all doing it wrong, each in their own way. Whatever they need to be doing instead, having more conversations isn't it.

Advice is good if it works for the person it is addressed to. It is bad if it does not. General advice like "talk to people more" cannot be expected to generally work any more than an appendectomy will work for every case of abdominal pain. An appendectomy will work only for someone whose problem is a diseased appendix.

That is good advice.

A friend of mine video taped his conversations with people. (By which I mean, there was a video recording of some event, and he left it on following, to capture his social interactions.) In this way, he was able to see not just things he said, but also gauge people's reactions to his body language. He said it was difficult to watch at first, but had a huge benefit to his social skills.

My most useful conversation strategy is the question. Being naturally curious helps, but it really is a universal tool, good for any topic.

Questions are great, but they have certain limitations:

  1. If you are beginning a conversation with some who you don't know well, they may not give you very extensive or useful answers to your questions.

  2. You can only ask so many questions in a row before you are interviewing them. Worse, it looks low status.

For people who over-rely on questions, they often ask a question, get a short or one-word answer, and then ask another questions, getting the same type of answer. After about 3 or 4 of these, the conversation is dead in the water.

The solution is to limit the amount of questions you ask until the other person becomes invested in the conversation enough to give you real answers. The PUA Juggler advises asking less questions and making more statements. Making statements engages the other person, and unlike questions, don't require the other person to reciprocate, avoiding the interviewing, chasing, or badgering dynamics that questions can cause. Making statements gives the other person information about the kind of person you are, which helps them decide if they want to open up to you. Of course, statements still need to be related someone to the current conversational context, or the other person will be wondering, "why are you telling me this?"

Here is an example of how you can get stuck in a rut with questions. This is a Standard College Conversation:

Student1: Hey, how's it going?

Student2: Good... you?

Student1: Pretty good... how was your weekend?

Student2: It was good.

Student1: Cool... where are you living nowadays?

Student2: Dorm Blah Blah Blah.

Student1: Nice, how is it there?

Student2: It's good...

A surprising amount of conversations go like this. Student2 is necessarily trying to be unhelpful; he just isn't yet invested in the conversation. After each of Student1's questions fail to hook Student2 into the conversation, he asks another questions which gets a similar response.

A better approach is for Student1 to start making some statements. Making statements gives him a lot more opportunities to hook Student2. Here are some examples:

Student1: Hey, how's it going?

Student2: Good... you?

Student1: Great! You'll never guess what happened to me today...

Now Student2 is engaged. Instead of firing back with another question, Student1 starts talking about what he was up to (if you ask a question and get a noncommittal answer, you can often answer your own question). In case, "you'll never guess what happened to me today" is a bit too much of a gimmick, here is another way:

Student1: Hey, how's it going?

Student2: Good... you?

Student1: Great! I've been having a crazy day... [describes what happened]

In the original conversation, Student1 only had 4 possible hooks into a conversation: one for each question he asked. In this example, telling an anecdote about what happened during his will give him a lot more hooks that will inspire a response from Student2 to either ask questions back, or talk more about his own day.

Any of the questions that Student1 asks in the conversation could be turned into an opportunity to answer it himself, giving him the opportunity to tell a story about what is going on in his life:

Student1: Hey, how's it going?

Student2: Good... you?

Student1: Pretty good... how was your weekend?

Student2: Awesome, I went to this party / book club, and [describes what happened]...

Student1: Hey, how's it going?

Student2: Good... you?

Student1: Pretty good... how was your weekend?

Student2: It was good.

Student1: Cool... where are you living nowadays?

Student2: Gamma Gamma Gamma.

Student1: Cool, I'm in Kappa Kappa Kappa. It's a funny place... [starts talking about something that recently happened at his dorm]

Once someone gets invested in a conversation and engaged, then you can start asking questions and getting in-depth answers. Sometimes a question alone will engage them, but if it doesn't, you can fall back on making statements (and answer your questions yourself) until the other person is sufficiently engaged.

Most of the people that I want to have conversations with have some topics that they can talk about enthusiastically at the drop of a hat, if only they could find someone interested. Today I was talking with someone who really likes chemistry, and I learned why it is that some molecules (like lipids) are hydrophobic and others (like ammonia) are hydrophilic. I didn't expect to learn this, but I wanted to keep the conversation going, so I just asked, thinking that maybe it would become interesting. And it worked! That conversation kicked ass!

This works for all sorts of subjects. Does someone love gardening? Say something about soil drainage, and it'll open the floodgates, starting what could be a fascinating conversation. The other person's obscure interests make for great conversation topics because they usually don't get to talk about it with anybody else.

The trick is finding those obscure interests. A lot of people seem embarrassed to be interested in weird stuff, and don't advertise it. It's socially okay to be interested in gossip and whether or not Lady Gaga has a penis (hint: no), but usually less okay to be interested in database denormalization and homoerotic Stargate SG-1 fanfiction. I'm hoping that the Internet will magically change this somehow, but until then, does anybody have hints for finding another person's weird interests?

This is my thing -- I always want to hear about any person's area of passion or expertise. It's usually much more interesting than small talk.

But I find it's often quite easy to get people started. I like to ask people about their work. (Scientists and engineers often seem particularly willing to talk, but there's certainly a range.) If someone mentions a hobby, I'll ask for details. I've learned a lot about ballroom dancing, guns, and violin from letting people ramble. It all comes down to being open to hearing long stories. I think people can somehow detect a willing listener, and as a result people seem to love to come to me with their stories.