People who work hard tend to burn out in a few years if they don't have a good support network.

Straw Hufflepuffs and Lone Heroes

I was hoping the next Project Hufflepuff post would involve more "explain concretely what I think we should do", but as it turns out I'm still hashing out some thoughts about that. In the meanwhile, this is the post I actually have ready to go, which is as good as any to post for now.

Epistemic Status: Mythmaking. This is tailored for the sort of person for whom the "Lone Hero" mindset is attractive. If that isn't something you're concerned with and this post feels irrelevant or missing some important things, note that my vision for Project Hufflepuff has multiple facets and I expect different people to approach it in different ways.

The Berkeley Hufflepuff Unconference is on April 28th. RSVPing on this Facebook Event is helpful, as is filling out this form.



For good or for ill, the founding mythology of our community is a Harry Potter fanfiction.

This has a few ramifications I’ll delve into at some point, but the most pertinent bit is: for a community to change itself, the impulse to change needs to come from within the community. I think it’s easier to build change off of stories that are already a part of our cultural identity.*

* with an understanding that maybe part of the problem is that our cultural identity needs to change, or be more accessible, but I’m running with this mythos for the time being.

In J.K Rowling’s original Harry Potter story, Hufflepuffs are treated like “generic background characters” at best and as a joke at worst. All the main characters are Gryffindors, courageous and true. All the bad guys are Slytherin. And this is strange - Rowling clearly was setting out to create a complex world with nuanced virtues and vices. But it almost seems to me like Rowling’s story takes place in an alternate, explicitly “Pro-Gryffindor propaganda” universe instead of the “real” Harry Potter world. 

People have trouble taking Hufflepuff seriously, because they’ve never actually seen the real thing - only lame, strawman caricatures.

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is… well, Pro-Ravenclaw propaganda. But part of being Ravenclaw is trying to understand things, and to use that knowledge. Eliezer makes an earnest effort to steelman each house. What wisdom does it offer that actually makes sense? What virtues does it cultivate that are rare and valuable?

When Harry goes under the sorting hat, it actually tries to convince him not to go into Ravenclaw, and specifically pushes towards Hufflepuff House:

Where would I go, if not Ravenclaw?

"Ahem. 'Clever kids in Ravenclaw, evil kids in Slytherin, wannabe heroes in Gryffindor, and everyone who does the actual work in Hufflepuff.' This indicates a certain amount of respect. You are well aware that Conscientiousness is just about as important as raw intelligence in determining life outcomes, you think you will be extremely loyal to your friends if you ever have some, you are not frightened by the expectation that your chosen scientific problems may take decades to solve -"

I'm lazy! I hate work! Hate hard work in all its forms! Clever shortcuts, that's all I'm about!

"And you would find loyalty and friendship in Hufflepuff, a camaraderie that you have never had before. You would find that you could rely on others, and that would heal something inside you that is broken."

But my plans -

"So replan! Don't let your life be steered by your reluctance to do a little extra thinking. You know that."

In the end, Harry chooses to go to Ravenclaw - the obvious house, the place that seemed most straightforward and comfortable. And ultimately… a hundred+ chapters later, I think he’s still visibly lacking in the strengths that Hufflepuff might have helped him develop. 

He does work hard and is incredibly loyal to his friends… but he operates in a fundamentally lone-wolf mindset. He’s still manipulating people for their own good. He’s still too caught up in his own cleverness. He never really has true friends other than Hermione, and when she is unable to be his friend for an extended period of time, it takes a huge toll on him that he doesn’t have the support network to recover from in a healthy way. 

The story does showcase Hufflepuff virtue. Hermione’s army is strong precisely because people work hard, trust each other and help each other - not just in big, dramatic gestures, but in small moments throughout the day. 

But… none of that ends up really mattering. And in the end, Harry faces his enemy alone. Lip service is paid to the concepts of friendship and group coordination, but the dominant narrative is Godric Gryffindor’s Nihil Supernum:


No rescuer hath the rescuer.
No lord hath the champion.
No mother or father.
Only nothingness above.


The Sequences and HPMOR both talk about the importance of groups, of emotions, of avoiding the biases that plague overly-clever people in particular. But I feel like the communities descended from Less Wrong, as a whole, are still basically that eleven-year-old Harry Potter: abstractly understanding that these things are important, but not really believing in them seriously enough to actually change their plans and priorities.

Lone Heroes


In Methods of Rationality, there’s a pretty good reason for Harry to focus on being a lone hero: he literally is alone. Nobody else really cares about the things he cares about or tries to do things on his level. It’s like a group project in high school, which is supposed to teach cooperation but actually just results in one kid doing all the work while the others either halfheartedly try to help (at best) or deliberately goof off.

Harry doesn’t bother turning to others for help, because they won’t give him the help he needs.

He does the only thing he can do reliably: focus on himself, pushing himself as hard as he can. The world is full of impossible challenges and nobody else is stepping up, so he shuts up and does the impossible as best he can. Learning higher level magic. Learning higher level strategy. Training, physically and mentally. 

This proves to be barely enough to survive, and not nearly enough to actually play the game. The last chapters are Harry realizing his best still isn’t good enough, and no, this isn’t fair, but it’s how the world is, and there’s nothing to do but keep trying.

He helps others level up as best they can. Hermione and Neville and some others show promise. But they’re not ready to work together as equals.

And frankly, this does match my experience of the real world. When you have a dream burning in your heart... it is incredibly hard to find someone who shares it, who will not just pitch in and help but will actually move heaven and earth to achieve it. 

And if they aren’t capable, level themselves up until they are.

In my own projects, I have tried to find people to work alongside me and at best I’ve found temporary allies. And it is frustrating. And it is incredibly tempting to say “well, the only person I can rely on is myself.”

But… here’s the thing.

Yes, the world is horribly unfair. It is full of poverty, and people trapped in demoralizing jobs. It is full of stupid bureaucracies and corruption and people dying for no good reason. It is full of beautiful things that could exist but don’t. And there are terribly few people who are able and willing to do the work needed to make a dent in reality.

But as long as we’re willing to look at monstrously unfair things and roll up our sleeves and get to work anyway, consider this:

It may be that one of the unfair things is that one person can never be enough to solve these problems. That one of the things we need to roll up our sleeves and do even though it seems impossible is figure out how to coordinate and level up together and rely on each other in a way that actually works.

And maybe, while we’re at it, find meaningful relationships that actually make us happy. Because it's not a coincidence that Hufflepuff is about both hard work and warmth and camaraderie. The warmth is what makes the hard work sustainable.

Godric Gryffindor has a point, but Nihil Supernum feels incomplete to me. There are no parents to step in and help us, but if we look to our left, or right…


Yes, you are only one
No, it is not enough—
But if you lift your eyes,
I am your brother

Vienna Teng, Level Up 


-


Reminder that the Berkeley Hufflepuff Unconference is on April 28th. RSVPing on this Facebook Event is helpful, as is filling out this form.


Comments

sorted by
magical algorithm
Highlighting new comments since Today at 6:23 AM
Select new highlight date
Rendering 50/63 comments  show more

The description of a Hufflepuff as "the one who does all the work" still sounds like a one-dimensional characterization. The focus on a Hufflepuff's work ethic in attempts to portray the house as being strong (with a side of "loyalty" and "friendship" used as buzzwords) feels woefully incomplete. It's largely the emotional labor that makes the work ethic possible, so saying "Hufflepuffs are hard-working, we should be more like that" is basically like saying "Ravenclaws are smart, we should be more like that".

An issue I face is that there's two very different audiences I need to write for to make this work: people who are naturally hufflepuff-inclined who want to be part of the community but don't feel welcome, and people who are naturally ravenclaw/slytherin-inclined who are really worried about losing the things that make the community make the community valuable to them.

Writing for everyone at once is hard, so this post is mostly for people who are similar to 11-year-old Harry. The description I quoted is from the book, and it's not a coincidence that the hard work is the part that 11-year-old Harry was able to understand viscerally as important (while the other aspects seemed vaguely good but not important enough to be worth expending the effort to change his habits and approach.)

This post is meant to resonate with people who are turned off by the stereotype of Hufflepuff as soft and unambitious and persuade them that there is something here that is worthwhile, important and exciting. (In later posts I'll be talking more about why the emotional labor is important and the actual nuts-and-bolts of how we're getting from here to there)

(I did edit the final section of the post to make it at least slightly more clear that loyalty/friendship aren't just buzzwords. Also updated the disclaimer at the beginning to say more straightforwardly "this is written for people attracted to the lone hero mindset." I think it's still relevant for people who are frustrated by the lone hero mindset but mostly in form of "this is a thing I'm trying to fix" rather than "this post is going to resonate with you")

"Ravenclaws are smart, we should be more like that" seems like a reasonable if very lossy summary of the whole rationalist project. If there was a useful book on how to be smarter and how to use my intellect more effectively, I would read that book. If a useful book on how to be hardworking and how to effectively benefit from teamwork were written, I would probably also read that book. (I know of and have read several of each of those books actually, though how useful they are varies.)

Writing a book of Hufflepuff and stopping there seems like it would miss the point however. While the natural form of "How to be a Ravenclaw" is as a book to be consumed by lone smart scholars, the natural form of "How to be a Hufflepuff" is probably as a community- it's the best way to learn that skillset, the best way for those who are naturally good at the skillset to teach it, and the end goal of the skillset. (C'mon Ravenclaws, admit it- our end goal is usually to have more books ;) )

the natural form of "How to be a Hufflepuff" is probably as a community- it's the best way to learn that skillset, the best way for those who are naturally good at the skillset to teach it, and the end goal of the skillset.

+1 to this. The whole point of writing blog posts that muse on the nature of having good communities is to have it actually bottom-out at some point in practice. Which means going into the world and actually trying to make our communities better.

"Ravenclaw wanted to have better communities, so they wrote a book about it and other Ravenclaws all separately read the book, and nothing further happened" sounds like such a probable way for this to fail that it'd be almost as funny as it would be sad. I assume Raemon has foreseen this possibility and has some plan to counteract this. To be clear, writing a book (or a series of blog posts) is a good way to get an idea across to Ravenclawish people, and emotional/mythic calls to action like this seem like a good piece of that plan.

As a datapoint, at the end of reading this post I was feeling inspired and positive about the project. That doesn't seem to have bottomed out into any useful actions, but I'm pretty geographically isolated, and I did spend some time thinking of virtual community-focused actions that might be helpful.

Then again, "read a book about community, which prompted introspective thought about abstract community building plans" also sounds like a stereotypical Ravenclaw action. Darn.

Edit: I'm not saying Ravenclaw tendencies are a bad thing or that we want to diminish those values. Those values are some of my favourite things about this community. I am saying (while attempting to be humorous) that writing and abstractly thinking about how to Hufflepuff might be sort of like trying to mix lots of shades of blue in order to get green. Sometimes you need yellow as a primary source, and can't engineer it out of blue.

"Ravenclaw wanted to have better communities, so they wrote a book about it and other Ravenclaws all separately read the book, and nothing further happened" sounds like such a probable way for this to fail that it'd be almost as funny as it would be sad. I assume Raemon has foreseen this possibility and has some plan to counteract this.

Part of the plan seems to be "Get people together for an unconference to talk".

C'mon Ravenclaws, admit it- our end goal is usually to have more books ;)

The internet and kindle have really screwed with the Ravenclaw aesthetic. (It's a good thing HPMoR is set in 1991)

It's largely the emotional labor that makes the work ethic possible

Huh?

Emotional labor can go into the noticing and motivation of the work (ie "the host of the party is busy making food, so I will clean up this mess" or "this person does not like cleaning and I notice that their table is sticky, so I will wipe it down for them"). It's easy for non-Hufflepuffs to ignore tasks like these or take them for granted unless they're explicitly asked to do something.

People who work hard tend to burn out in a few years if they don't have a good support network.

I am not sure that's true (I think individual variation is too great for popular wisdom like this to be useful), but my question has to do with terminology.

What is "emotional labor" -- is it a vaguely Marxist term for keeping yourself together and not going to pieces? Or is it this kind of emotional labor? Does "work ethic" mean work as a monomania?

How about we don't carry the idea of exclusivity of virtue too far? Nobody should identify with any of these houses, everybody should strive to develop in all ways. For narrative purposes, it's a neat metaphor to split kids into groups which highlight different aspects of a functioning adult, but it would be a horrible, dystopian, broken society that did this with real humans.

It's fine to say "I think we're undervaluing the things that HPMOR described as Hufflepuff virtues", but trying to make that into a membership/identity thing were we're hoping to attract people to identify as Hufflepuff-sorted heroes is way over the line.

I'm not sure if I understand this well enough to know if it's the thing I'm trying to do (and/or the thing I'm doing, regardless of my intent)

I will say that I'm trying to do something pretty nuanced, but that I think building motivation and interest in a thing requires laying out some strong, salient examples. (For reference, there is a sense in which I think it was ridiculous and epistemically unsound for Eliezer to include fictional stories about a Secret Bayesian Order of Monks among his posts about decision theory and AI, but those stories did in fact play an important role in causing a community to exist and a lot of good things to happen)

In the end, my goal here is to have trust/communication/emotional skills feel sufficiently exciting that people actually take them seriously. Not have them become the be-all-end-all of a new tribal identity.

In the end, my goal here is to have trust/communication/emotional skills feel sufficiently exciting that people actually take them seriously. Not have them become the be-all-end-all of a new tribal identity.

Your post doesn't conjure up an image of a person who has trust/communication/emotional skills.

You don't get an inspiring myth by doing literary criticism. When you want to research how a good model of a person who has those skills looks like neither EY writing nor Rowlings work provide a good foundation.

I don't think I've ever helped someone with a significant project.

(I also don't think I've ever performed a project of my own that required more effort than running a D&D adventure. I'm not sure if the moral is (1) I'm lazy, or (2) I'm optimizing for projects that don't require high effort to get started.)

Question: what's an example of a time when you found out about someone else's project, thought it was awesome, put in more than an hour of effort helping them with it, and were happy with the result?

In my case, helping out with the first Effective Altruism summit is the most salient example.

I like this post. It points to things I hadn't thought about, and now I'm seeing a deeper distinction into what you're pointing at. I've also realized that I probably identify more w/ Hufflepuff the way you're using it than I previously thought.

If I were to summarize what I think you're saying, it would be like this:

Rationality on the one hand is a very individualistic path to take. To develop good critical thinking and reasoning skills requires doing a lot of work on your own. After all, rationality requires training the mind. We are, by definition, the only ones who can actually know our own minds. Others can provide guidance, advice, useful concepts, methods, and tricks, but ultimately you will be the primary driving force in improving your own rationality.

That said, the entire reason to be a good rationalist is to be better at being a person - a person who is a part of a community and part of a society. Ultimately there are goals that we'd like to accomplish that will be easier to attain if we are more rational and also if a group of rational individuals works together. Additionally, we'd all like to be happier, and most of human happiness necessitates human companionship and camaraderie.

Of course that all sounds uncontroversial and obvious. Where does the problem lie then? On the one hand, rationality as an individual endeavor seems to encourage individualistic behavior. On the other hand there could also be a slight selection effect going on. We might like the fact that we can develop a sense of self-worth and efficacy that does not immediately require creating strong social bonds. People who are drawn to rationality might be drawn to it because, wherever most people seem to develop their "purpose in life" or find meaning, they didn't, for whatever reason. I would naively say it was probably because they were introverts. They never developed very strong friendships or groups to be a part of, and turning to rationality allowed them to feel like they had importance despite that and an opportunity to develop. (And an online community where they felt they finally had people to talk to who would understand them.)

What that means is that we have a lot of people with individualist personalities who are developing themselves in a way that is primarily an individual endeavor. That sort of makes trying to have well-organized group projects a bit of a challenge. I think if you're arguing that we should encourage people to develop their social skills, I wouldn't be opposed to that at all. I think the only sort of challenge you'll get from taking that route is how to do it without compromising qualities that make us rational (for example, how do we prevent social pressures that encourage irrationality from taking hold).

I think that it is a mistake to treat "individualism" (or "introversion") as a 1-place word. And that it is critical for the rationalist community to understand this.

How you feel among other people, and how you interact with them, that depends not only on you, but also on those other people. To quote a friend: "I thought I was introverted, but I guess I just never met the right kind of people before."

To provide an analogy with computer programming, imagine that you are the best programmer at your high school. Your classmates can barely produce code that runs, you develop applications for fun in your free time. It will make sense for you to ignore your classmates in this area, because you have nothing to learn from them. -- But a decade later, when you get your first programming job, the situation is different: your colleagues are good at their work (not necessarily all of them), and there are even more smart people outside, so you have to learn using google and StackExchange, etc. If you remain stuck in the "I have to do everything alone, because everyone else is incompetent" mindset, you will soon find yourself outcompeted. The strategy that worked for you once, doesn't work anymore; it's time to update and get new skills.

I think this is what happens to many smart people in mostly stupid society. They learn, during childhood, that the best strategy is to think for themselves, try to do things alone, never rely on anyone, etc. It is a strategy that works well in a certain context. But when the context changes, many of them are unable to change the strategy accordingly. -- Mensa is an archetypal example, but many of us are not much better. Too focused on signalling superiority to environment, we fail to notice an opportunity to actually cooperate. Which actually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because... well, if the other person refuses to cooperate with you (working under the common "knowledge" that cooperation between you is impossible), then indeed, the cooperation between you becomes impossible. But only because it requires two people to change their strategy at the same time, something that probably neither of them did before, and neither of them has any practice at doing... yeah, it can be difficult, especially on the emotional level, and concluding that "it's impossible (and unnecessary) anyway" is the convenient way out.

Your "individualism" is partially how your environment has made you. It is not the only way things could be. Now it's time for you (us) to start making your (our) own environment.

This is obvious in hindsight and I thank you for bringing it up.