Irrationality Game III

The 'Irrationality Game' posts in discussion came before my time here, but I had a very good time reading the bits written in the comments section.  I also had a number of thoughts I would've liked to post and get feedback on, but I knew that being buried in such old threads not much would come of it.  So I asked around and feedback from people has suggested that they would be open to a reboot!

I hereby again quote the original rules:

Please read the post before voting on the comments, as this is a game where voting works differently.

Warning: the comments section of this post will look odd. The most reasonable comments will have lots of negative karma. Do not be alarmed, it's all part of the plan. In order to participate in this game you should disable any viewing threshold for negatively voted comments.

Here's an irrationalist game meant to quickly collect a pool of controversial ideas for people to debate and assess. It kinda relies on people being honest and not being nitpickers, but it might be fun.

Write a comment reply to this post describing a belief you think has a reasonable chance of being true relative to the the beliefs of other Less Wrong folk. Jot down a proposition and a rough probability estimate or qualitative description, like 'fairly confident'.

Example (not my true belief): "The U.S. government was directly responsible for financing the September 11th terrorist attacks. Very confident. (~95%)."

If you post a belief, you have to vote on the beliefs of all other comments. Voting works like this: if you basically agree with the comment, vote the comment down. If you basically disagree with the comment, vote the comment up. What 'basically' means here is intuitive; instead of using a precise mathy scoring system, just make a guess. In my view, if their stated probability is 99.9% and your degree of belief is 90%, that merits an upvote: it's a pretty big difference of opinion. If they're at 99.9% and you're at 99.5%, it could go either way. If you're genuinely unsure whether or not you basically agree with them, you can pass on voting (but try not to). Vote up if you think they are either overconfident or underconfident in their belief: any disagreement is valid disagreement.

That's the spirit of the game, but some more qualifications and rules follow.

If the proposition in a comment isn't incredibly precise, use your best interpretation. If you really have to pick nits for whatever reason, say so in a comment reply.

The more upvotes you get, the more irrational Less Wrong perceives your belief to be. Which means that if you have a large amount of Less Wrong karma and can still get lots of upvotes on your crazy beliefs then you will get lots of smart people to take your weird ideas a little more seriously.

Some poor soul is going to come along and post "I believe in God". Don't pick nits and say "Well in a a Tegmark multiverse there is definitely a universe exactly like ours where some sort of god rules over us..." and downvote it. That's cheating. You better upvote the guy. For just this post, get over your desire to upvote rationality. For this game, we reward perceived irrationality.

Try to be precise in your propositions. Saying "I believe in God. 99% sure." isn't informative because we don't quite know which God you're talking about. A deist god? The Christian God? Jewish?

Y'all know this already, but just a reminder: preferences ain't beliefs. Downvote preferences disguised as beliefs. Beliefs that include the word "should" are are almost always imprecise: avoid them.

That means our local theists are probably gonna get a lot of upvotes. Can you beat them with your confident but perceived-by-LW-as-irrational beliefs? It's a challenge!

Additional rules:

  • Generally, no repeating an altered version of a proposition already in the comments unless it's different in an interesting and important way. Use your judgement.
  • If you have comments about the game, please reply to my comment below about meta discussion, not to the post itself. Only propositions to be judged for the game should be direct comments to this post. 
  • Don't post propositions as comment replies to other comments. That'll make it disorganized.
  • You have to actually think your degree of belief is rational.  You should already have taken the fact that most people would disagree with you into account and updated on that information. That means that  any proposition you make is a proposition that you think you are personally more rational about than the Less Wrong average.  This could be good or bad. Lots of upvotes means lots of people disagree with you. That's generally bad. Lots of downvotes means you're probably right. That's good, but this is a game where perceived irrationality wins you karma. The game is only fun if you're trying to be completely honest in your stated beliefs. Don't post something crazy and expect to get karma. Don't exaggerate your beliefs. Play fair.
  • Debate and discussion is great, but keep it civil.  Linking to the Sequences is barely civil -- summarize arguments from specific LW posts and maybe link, but don't tell someone to go read something. If someone says they believe in God with 100% probability and you don't want to take the time to give a brief but substantive counterargument, don't comment at all. We're inviting people to share beliefs we think are irrational; don't be mean about their responses.
  • No propositions that people are unlikely to have an opinion about, like "Yesterday I wore black socks. ~80%" or "Antipope Christopher would have been a good leader in his latter days had he not been dethroned by Pope Sergius III. ~30%." The goal is to be controversial and interesting.
  • Multiple propositions are fine, so long as they're moderately interesting.
  • You are encouraged to reply to comments with your own probability estimates, but  comment voting works normally for comment replies to other comments.  That is, upvote for good discussion, not agreement or disagreement.
  • In general, just keep within the spirit of the game: we're celebrating LW-contrarian beliefs for a change!

I would suggest placing *related* propositions in the same comment, but wildly different ones might deserve separate comments for keeping threads separate.

Make sure you put "Irrationality Game" as the first two words of a post containing a proposition to be voted upon in the game's format.

Here we go!

EDIT:  It was pointed out in the meta-thread below that this could be done with polls rather than karma so as to discourage playing-to-win and getting around the hiding of downvoted comments.  If anyone resurrects this game in the future, please do so under that system  If you wish to test a poll format in this thread feel free to do so, but continue voting as normal for those that are not in poll format. 

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Irrationality Game: Less Wrong is simply my Tyler Durden—a disassociated digital personality concocted by my unconcious mind to be everything I need it to be to cope with Camusian absurdist reality. 95%.

So, I'm supposed to upvote this unless I believe that I am a figment of your imagination? This seems a bit cheaty. Maybe I should post "No one other than ThisSpaceAvailable believes that this statement is true. 99.99%"

Irrationality Game: (meta, I like this idea)

Flush toilets are a horrible mistake. 7b/99%

Irrationality game: Every thing which exists has subjective experience (80%). This includes things such as animals, plants, rocks, ideas, mathematics, the universe and any sub component of an aforementioned system.

By "any subcomponent," do you mean that the powerset of the universe is composed of conscious entities, even when light speed and expansion preclude causal interaction within the conscious entity? Because, if the universe is indeed spatially infinite, that means that the set of conscious entities is the infinity of the continuum; and I'm really confused by what that does to anthropic reasoning.

Irrationality game:

Most posthuman societies will have violent death rate much higher than humans ever had. Most poshumans who will ever live will die at wars. 95%

Not a bad hypothesis, but your confidence level is too high... hence my upvote.

Interesting. So, you have Robin Hanson's belief that we won't get a strong singleton; but you lack his belief that emulated minds will be able to evaluate each other's abilities with enough confidence that trade (taking into account the expected value of fighting) will be superior to fighting? That's quite the idiosyncratic position, especially for 95% confidence.

Are you imagining that outcome because you expect resource shortages? Peaceful lives are just too boring? Posthumans are generally too alien to each other for stable cooperation?

Now that I think about it, I find the last alternative pretty plausible.

Seems fairly reasonable on its face, actually; once you've gotten rid of disease and age, what's left is accidents, violence, and suicide if you're counting that separately from violence.

Upvoted, though, because I think you're undercounting accidents (more Americans already die in automotive accidents than die violently, by a large margin; I'd expect the same is true for the rest of the First World but haven't seen statistics) and making too strong a statement about the structure of posthuman society.

You (the reader) do not exist.

EDIT: That was too punchy and not precise. The reasoning behind the statement:

Most things which think they are me are horribly confused gasps of consciousness. Rational agents should believe the chances are small that their experiences are remotely genuine.

EDIT 2: After thinking about shminux's comment, I have to retract my original statement about you readers not existing. Even if I'm a hopelessly confused Boltzmann brain, the referent "you" might still well exist. At minimum I have to think about existence more. Sorry!

Irrationality Game: I am something ontologically distinct from my body; I am much simpler and I am not located in the same spacetime. 50%

EDIT: Upon further reflection, my probability assignment would be better represented as the range between 30% and 50%, after factoring in general uncertainty due to confusion. I doubt this will make a difference to the voting though. ;)

Irrationality game - there is a provident, superior entity that is in no way infinite (I wonder if people here would call that God. As a "superman theist" I had to put "odds of God (as defined in question)" at 5% but identify as strongly theist in the last census)

Edit: forgot odds. 80%

The universe is finite, and not much bigger than the region we observe. There is no multiverse (in particular Many Worlds Interpretation is incorrect and SIA is incorrect). There have been a few (< million) intelligent civilisations before human beings but none of them managed to expand into space, which explains Fermi's paradox. This also implies a mild form of the "Doomsday" argument (we are fairly unlikely to expand ourselves) but not a strong future filter (if instead millions or billions of civilisations had existed, but none of them expanded, there would be a massive future filter). Probability: 90%.

Irrationality Game: One can reliable and predictably make $1M / year, and it's not that difficult. (Confidence: 75%)

What do you mean by “one”? Literally anyone at all? Anyone at least as smart as the average LWer? Something else?

Irrationality game:

There are other 'technological civilizations' (in the sense of intelligent living things that have learned to manipulate matter in a complicated way) in the observable universe: 99%

There are other 'technological civilizations' in our own galaxy: 75% with most of the probability mass in regimes where there are somewhere between dozens and thousands.

Conditional on these existing: Despite some being very old, they are limited by the hostile nature of the universe and the realities of practical manipulation of matter and energy to never controlling much matter outside the surfaces of life-bearing worlds, and either never leave their solar systems of origin with anything self-replicating or their replicators on average produce less than 1 seed to continue. 95%

Humanity has already received and recorded a radio signal from another thing-analogous-to-a-technological-civilization. This was either unnoticed or not unequivocally recognized as such due to some combination of very short duration, being a one-off event that was never repeated, being modulated in a way that the receiver was not looking for, or being indistinguishable from terrestrial radio noise. 20%.

Conditional on the above, the "Wow!" signal was such a signal. 20%.

Irrationality game:

Nice idea. This way I can safely test whether the Baseline of my opinion on LW topics is as contrarian as I think.

My proposition:

On The Simulation Argument I go for "(1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage" (80%)

Correspondingly on The Great Filter I go for failure to reach "9. Colonization explosion" (80%).

This is not because I think that humanity is going to self-annihilate soon (though this is a possibility).

If this train of thought continues along its natural course, you have to wonder why you are being "shown" the experience you have this moment as you read this, rather than some other more interesting or influential moment. Also, it is not clear that you would want to use this kind of anthropic reasoning to determine a policy; people that are not conscious but think they are would incorrectly draw the same conclusions and thus muck up the social commons with their undue senses of specialness.

ETA: There are a few other counterarguments similar to those in the previous paragraph. This has perturbed me for many years now, because the line of reasoning in the parent comment really does seem like the most intuitive approach to subjective anthropics. I'd be very satisfied to find a solution, but it seems equally likely that there's just something pretty wrong with our intuitions about (relative) existence, which has implications for which kinds of decision theories we should be willing to put our weight on.

ETA2: And the UDT pragmatist in me wonders whether it even means anything for a hypothesis to be true, if it rationally shouldn't affect your decisions. If anything I would lean toward decision theoretic epiphenomenalism implying falsehood.

Irrationality game: people are happier when living in traditional social structures, and value being part of their traditions[1]. The public existence of "weird" relationships (homosexuality, polyamory, BDSM, ...) is actively harmful to most people; the open practice of them is a net negative for world utility. Morally good actions include condemnation and censorship of such things.

[1] Or rather what they believe are their traditions; these beliefs may not be particularly well-correlated with reality.

That looks to be a pretty standard neo-reactionary position.