...okay, maybe this is a cult.

Well, it's clear that a lot of people found the koans confusing. Silly me, I realized I forgot to include Mumon's commentaries!

Mumon's commentary on the first koan:

Because Ni no Tachi hated rich men, Ougi gave up his wealth of silence. When Ni no Tachi became a rich man, He loaned money to his students.

Mumon's commentary on the second koan:

A flower is neither bread nor water, Why not replace it with a weed? Bouzo changed the shape of Ougi's garden, But did he really understand?

From the Discworld novel Thief of Time:

In the Second Scroll of Wen the Eternally Surprised a story is written concerning one day when the apprentice Clodpool, in a rebellious mood, approached Wen and spake thusly:

"Master, what is the difference between a humanistic, monastic system of belief in which wisdom is sought by means of an apparently nonsensical system of questions and answers, and a lot of mystic gibberish made up on the spur of the moment?"

Wen considered this for some time, and at last said: "A fish!"

And Clodpool went away, satisfied.

If you can't figure out how to use the hammer, but you nonetheless convince younger students of its importance, aren't you likely to be in a cult? Or more likely, if you can see that many of the other teachers are teaching material they don't understand?

Sounds like either a cult or a college.

Chris, for a while I was a member of what most people would consider a "cult", and from my experience "cults" usually teach people useful things. So it is a mistake to assure yourself you are not in a cult because you see that you are learning useful things.

That was cute. I'm not sure I understand it, though.

I think I'll side with the novices against Ougi here. The novices deserve a clearer answer than "think of ways to resolve your doubts" and "all will be clear when you try to use this stuff." Cults usually tell people many things that are actually useful, and confronting leaders seems a reasonable way to resolve doubts. As I said before, the word "cult" is a bit too easy a word to throw around - I'd prefer a clearer description of what it means exactly and how to recognize one.

(Unlurking and creating an account for use from this point onwards; どうかお手柔らかにお願いします。)

Something I found curious in the reading of the comments for this article is the perception that Bouzo took away the conclusion that clothing was in fact important for probability.

Airing my initial impression for possible contrast (/as an indication of my uncertainty): When I read the last sentence, I imagined an unwritten 'And in that moment the novice was enlightened', mirroring the structure of certain koans I once glanced through.

My interpretation is/was that those words of Ougi's were what caused the novice to realise his error (in focusing on the clothing rather than the teachings when considering likelihood of cultishness), the absurdity of a hat worn affecting one's understanding revealing the absurdity the clothing worn by those in the dojo inherently for their rationality (though arguments could be made about indirect advantages and/or disadvantages in both directions?).

From that, the clown suit could be taken as a result of him being humbled by this lesson, it making such a deep impression on him that, taking it to heart, he established something to remind him (and others?) of it as part of his daily behaviour.

(This would be that, rather than thinking a clown suit really could make him more rational, him wearing a clown suit when discussing rationality to dramatically demonstrate the lack of importance of what he wore for what he said. I'm also reminded of the concept of abnormality being going to school in a clown suit rather than in all black, though this is arguably not directly relevant.)

I am as yet unfamiliar with the architecture of this location, and so do not know if anyone will automatically know about it nor in fact if it will ever be read, but it nevertheless is a significant weight off my mind to speak about my impressions alongside those of others. I thank you all.

A few of you touched on the point I got out of this, but no one explained it very well. In the first koan, Ougi says two things. The clearer one is tangential to rationality, but important for self-doubting cultists. "You are like a swordsman who keeps glancing away to see if anyone might be laughing at him".

The more important point was that the teachings are valuable if they are useful. (This is applicable to the sword fighter because allowing yourself to be distracted is an immediate danger.)

The importance of the parable about hammers doesn't relate to prices, but to usefulness. "Use the hammer to drive nails" in a discussion about rationality is metaphoric for using the techniques to make better decisions. If Ougi's teachings help you make better decisions in your life, then they are valuable. If they merely bind you more tightly to Ougi, then you are a cultist.

Bouzo didn't learn anything that helped him make decisions, he was merely cowed into following Ougi more closely. Ni no Tachi learned to "concentrate on a real-world question", so "the worth ... of his understanding [became] apparent."

Ni no Tachi figured out how to use the hammer, but Bouzo only sold them without understanding their value.

"Since you are so concerned about the interactions of clothing with probability theory," Ougi said, "it should not surprise you that you must wear a special hat to understand."

But isn't this almost the exact opposite of what the student was saying? Questioning the robes indicates to me that the student felt there was not any interaction between learning probability theory and clothing, and that therefore it served some other purpose, presumably differentiating between an in group and an out group.

Or am I just nuts for trying to argue with you about the internal thoughts of your own fictional characters?

"Why not?"

Because it confuses them into thinking that maybe the clothes have something to do with the meat of the instruction, and it takes longer for them to learn what they're being taught. It obscures the the real teaching, hides it among irrelevant rituals.

For anyone reading this at a future point there's more recent discussion from a sequence rerun here

A koan: If you have ice cream, I will give it to you. If you have no ice cream, I will take it away from you. It is an ice cream koan.

Caledonian, did you get your's from Stargate?

"I THINK that's what you're saying..."

I think it is saying that if you want to know if an idea is true or not, compare it to reality. Clothes are an irrelevancy. "If it can drive nails, who can doubt it's worth?"

Tiiba, do you mean to imply that if your group is cultish, the group I belong to is safe by the tu quoque principle? ;)

In all seriousness, I think the second point is a little more complicated than you described. Specifically, I think Mr. Yudkowsky is trying to point out that Bouzo had plenty of evidence more closely entangled with cult/non-cult status than whether or not they had uniforms. He had experienced Ougi's teachings directly. In the absence of that evidence, of course, the uniforms would be more important evidence.

But Mr. Yudkowski, why shouldn't we be concerned with such apparently superficial signs of cultishness? Shouldn't we -- especially the less experienced rationalists among us -- be on the lookout for objective clues to bias? After all, as has been pointed out already on Overcoming Bias, situations often look different from the inside, in ways that generate inaccuracies. (People tend to underestimate how biased their beliefs are. It's easier to show that someone's wearing uniform clothes than to show that they're wearing irrationally uniform beliefs.)

Snort. Got here while trying to figure out what, if any answer (the comic provides none) there is to "What kind of ice cream do you put on a Koan?" And here I find this... lol

Seriously, though, like most arguments presented by monk style philosophers, the answer given is flawed. Which is more valuable of the following?

1. A pure gold hammer with a mess of rhinestones in the handle. Estimated material cost - $200.

2. A real hammer, with a gold filigree handle and an idiotic mess of bangles hanging off of it, jewels strung onto them. Estimated material cost - $200.

3. A real hammer, simple black handle, estimated store cost - $10.

Well, if the point of the hammer is to build a house, you have a problem, because both 2 and 3 are options. Number 2 is silly as hell, regardless of whether you glued all the junk on it yourself, or you claim to have found it in the lost tomb of Jesus. It may still hammer nails, but no one in their right mind would use it, except out of necessity of there being no other hammers available. Option #1 is completely useless, gold being too soft to hammer much of anything, and again, it doesn't become a more valuable hammer if you claim that "it" was found in the lost tomb of the great Illuminati or some similar gibberish. A cult is a cult because it either contains nothing but gold hammers, or it insists that everything must be done using hammers that have lots of idiotic junk glued onto them, which don't help make the hammer any more useful. Someone intent on building a house can as easily use the second option as the third, but the moment you start thinking that you "have to" have all the silly BS glued to the hammer for it to work, it becomes a cult. Witness pretty much all religions, which nearly universally insist that its impossible to invent a hammer, without the guidance of high order of hammer makers, as to what sort of bangles and filigree one has to add to it before the magic spirits will make it work right. ;) Some are though tend to be satisfied with just the hammer, but insist the handle must be red, or something, to make it lucky (which might be the approach of the few relatively "rational" religions in the world), of which most are not.

In general, the more rational your starting framework, the least silly the necessary robes/clown suits are, but even the most rational groups, if they don't take a critical look at certain assumptions, can get cultish. The key difference being if they opt to make those choices for distinction, or because they have actually come to believe that some detail of their world won't work without the silly hat.

Oh, and anyone know the answer to the original question that got me here? lol

What's wrong with being in a cult, as long as you're reasonably self-aware about it? Cults are fun! ;)

Incidentally, Wikipedia lists itself in its list of alleged cults.

Why not?

I had a friend in college who was a philosophy major; he'd been raised a fundamentalist Christian, and turned from that into some sort of chaotic evil deist. I used to enjoy arguing philosophy and ethics with him. But the further he got into his study, the more his arguments turned into half-understood quotations of Wittgenstein and Kant, and his debating technique turned into sophistries and trying to name and call out others' logical fallacies, sometimes correctly and sometimes not -- the same techniques he grew up with, only without having to wake up early on Sunday. I don't argue with him anymore...

"If I had a hammer that seemed to me to work really well, but no one was willing to pay me the going rate for hammers of that quality"

.. then by definition you have mis-estimated the going rate.

Did I mention I hate Zen-style teaching?

I presume you feel the same way about the Socratic method?

If clothes are unrelated to probability theory, why do the students have to wear robes?

I only got into the rationalist game because I'm fond of hats. Oh, and Robin's advice on gift-giving.

I'll try to decipher the message.

If I am concerned that the group I belong to is becoming cultish, the thing to do is to ask what is a cult and what is not a cult, and see if the definition applies to your group. The second koan reminds us not to use extraneous details like uniforms. More non-cultists than cultists use uniforms. In general P(Category|Feature) != P(Feature|Category).

I THINK that's what you're saying...

Did I mention I hate Zen-style teaching?

Hate hate hate.

Unless you're going to tell me Godel, Escher, Bach consisted of Zen-style teaching, in which case I'll bring it down to two hates. (But it sure is pretty.)

Also, college: hate hate hate.

I don't think Hanson is saying economics is a cult, he is referring to either this or this.

I still like Tom's the best.

The student asked, "Where is the true master of the Way?" The master replied, "Where is a true student of the Way?"

I would greatly appreciate it if you or anyone else would explain it.

You cannot understand the moon by deconstructing the finger.

Well, this is a bit better than normal.

If you can immediately recognize the candlelight as fire, the meal was cooked a long time ago.