Some thoughts on having children

Disclaimer: I am not a parent.

I've seen a bit of discussion here on whether or not to have children. Most of the discussion that I have seen are about the moral case, but there are factors as well. I'd like to talk about three aspects of parenting that I suspect are the main reasons why people choose to have kids or not: the financial case, the moral case, and the practical case (for lack of a better term). The financial case is straightforward - how expensive is raising kids? The moral case has to do with the best use of resources: is it better to divert resources away from having kids towards charity? The practical case has to do with the actual process of being a parent - the effort it takes and the sense of responsibility. 

The Practical Case

I suspect that the main reason for why people don't have kids is because they think that kids are a lot of responsibility because:

1) It takes a lot of work and effort to raise children - effort that could be spent on other activities.

2) Great parenting is extremely important for raising well adjusted, intelligent kids that will grow up to be successful and likable adults. 

Regarding 1) yes kids do take a lot of time and effort, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - lots of things that are rewarding require a lot of effort, such as learning a language or a new skill. I don't know what its like to a parent so I won't say much more on this topic.

Regarding 2) it is actually far from a settled question whether parenting style significantly affects the kind of person that your child will grow up to be. There has been some discussion here on the effects of parenting on children. The tentative consensus seems to be that within the range of normal parenting, parenting style has only small impact life outcomes pertaining to happiness, personality, educational achievement. That doesn't mean that how you treat your child doesn't matter. Steven Pinker puts it quite nicely:

Judith Rich Harris is coming out with a book called The Nurture Assumption which argues that parents don’t influence the long-term fates of their children; peers do. The reaction she often gets is, “So are you saying it doesn’t matter how I treat my child?” She points out that this is like someone learning that you can’t change the personality of your spouse and asking, “So are you saying that it doesn’t matter how you treat my spouse?” People seem to think that the only reason to be nice to children is that it will mold their character as adults in the future — as opposed to the common-sense idea that you should be nice to people because it makes life better for them in the present. Child rearing has become a technological matter of which practices grow the best children, as opposed to a human relationship in which the happiness of the child (during childhood) is determined by how the child is treated. She has a wonderful quote: “We may not control our children’s tomorrows, but we surely control their todays, and we have the capacity to make them very, very miserable.”

The message I would take away is not to worry too much about creating an optimal child. Don't worry about finding the optimal set of extra-curricular activities or the perfect balance of authoritarianism and permissiveness. Instead, try to cultivate a healthy relationship with your child and most of all enjoy the parenting process.

The Financial Case

In agarian societies (and most societies quite frankly) children were/are cheap, in some cases free labor and a life insurance policy for when you retire. But in the post-industrial Western world that is no longer the case. For a middle-upper class family, having a child is a very large cost for two reasons: the first is that children cost a lot of money to raise. The second reason is that having a child might hold you back from advancing your career as much as you would have been able to do otherwise. I will focus on the first problem here. According to the United States department of Agriculture, the average cost of raising a child to age 18 was about $241,080 (in 2012 dollars). This doesn't count the cost of college which can exceed $250,000 at elite institutions. I'll assume the $250,000 figure for the purposes of the following calculations.

Assuming that you are able to invest your money at a modest 5% rate of return, this amounts to having to put aside $8887 each year from your child's birth for college only, and approximately $13,000 (2012 dollars) per year on other expenses such as housing and food. That $13,000 per year figure does not account for inflation and in reality that figure would grow each year but this is just to provide a rough ball-park figure. This figure goes up if you have more than one child but the per child cost goes down.

This brings up the issue of whether or not you "owe" your child an all expenses paid college education. I wouldn't rule out only paying partially for your child's college education especially since this calculation assumes only one child. I would be interested to hear more thoughts on this matter.

The Moral Case

Some effective altruists have advanced the idea that having children is immoral because the money spent on having kids would be better spent by donating it to charity. This assumes utilitarianism, and indeed if GiveWell recommended charities were perfect or even pretty good util maximizers then this argument would succeed, since by design whatever they did would be the best use of money under utilitarianism. However, I do not believe that this is the case. GiveWell recommended charities that focus almost exclusively on public health initiatives, and exclusively focus on providing aid to the poorest countries. While a simple diminishing marginal returns argument might suggest that this is the lowest hanging fruit and hence the best use of money there are other things that need to be considered.

As Apprentice points out the heritability of prosocial behaviors such as cooperativeness, empathy and altruism is 0.5, and I think most people here are aware that IQ has a heritability around that number as well and is a pretty good predictor of life outcomes. If you want to increase the number of people in the world that are like yourself, then having children is a great way of doing so. This is particularly important since high IQ college educated individuals in Western countries have fertility rates that are below replacement levels and are some of the lowest in the world.

Rachels anticipates this argument by pointing out than one child is unlikely to produce the same returns as an investment in charity. I believe this is a mistake because it is short sighted. If you stop the utilitarian analysis at one generation into the future then yes having a smart altruistic child will not give the same returns as saving lives through charity, however consequentialism need not be short sighted. If you have more than one child, and/or if your children have children then the returns get magnified significantly - and it is worth noting that intelligent people contribute a lot to society not just through charity but through their work as well. Moreover, the people you would save by donating to charity would also have children and those children would have children all of whom might require yet more aid in the future. Thus the short term gains in QALYs that giving to GiveWell recommended charities provides lead to a long term drain of resources and human capital. And as I have already mentioned, intelligent people already have the lowest fertility in society, I'd rather not see it go even lower.

Jeff Kaufman provides two counterarguments that caught my eye: that this is an argument for sperm donation rather than having children; and that genetic engineering will solve the dysgenic fertility problem. However, sperm banks are already eugenic (in a sense) and it is fairly easy to saturate the supply of high quality sperm. Sperm donation is good idea for highly intelligent individuals (and to my surprise there are actually sperm donor shortages in some parts of the world making it an even better idea), but it is not a substitute for having children - the bottleneck quickly becomes the demand for said sperm. This is certainly a potential area worth investigating as a light form of eugenics, but I don't know of anyone who's trying to market eugenic sperm donation right now. With regard to genetic engineering, I have serious doubts that the field will develop to the point of commercialization in the next hundred years, and I have even stronger doubts that it will be widely accepted and used. While I realize that prediction of the future is very difficult, I would be very surprised if in a hundred years the average Joe will think about having genetically engineered children. Any mention of eugenics already invokes fear in the hearts of most people, and its pretty hard to deny that genetically engineering babies is the scariest kind of eugenics. Human genetic engineering might well solve the dysgenic problem, but I wouldn't bet strongly on that happening any time soon, whereas having children is an almost guaranteed way of helping to solve the problem.

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its pretty hard to deny that genetically engineering babies is the scariest kind of eugenics.

Pretty sure negative eugenics with concentration camps is a scarier kind of eugenics.

Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.

Disclaimer: parent of a bunch o' kids.

The question of "should one have children" is very different from "should YOU have children", as "should a randomly chosen LW'er on average have children" is different from "should an American", or "should a human being (including Somalians) have children". Asking the question broadest in scope, even if answered "correctly", yields mostly personally inapplicable results.

Many of the arguments you gave pertain to the generic "should one have children" more so than they do to the readership of your article, thus losing a good amount of relevancy.

Case in point: all of the different heritability coefficients are dependent on the choice of population. As you become a more reflective person with more options open for you to take, heritability coefficients change. It's like asking about the heritability of IQ going off of dog populations, then concluding that different parenting styles have only x or y impact because the dogs' "parenting" barely impacted their litter's IQ. Higher environmental variance leads to smaller heritability coefficients.

Generically determined factors are still useful data points for public policy debates; they are not for personal choices. There is no logical contradiction there. Someone who wholeheartedly embraces polyamory for his/her personal lifestyle may well conclude that society may be better off living majority-monogamic. Atheists may prefer for the masses to retain religiously instilled doctrines to maintain societal stability (as a tangent, do you really want your janitor to question deeply why he should clean up your trash?).

Another point you make is too US-centric. Yes, raising children is an expensive enterprise in most circumstances, but points of contention such as paying for a college education are a non-issue in some societies, such as many European countries ("student" and "debt" don't share the same word cloud).

More fundamentally, there are a number of implicit assumptions skewing the topic: the equation of morality with charity; most any utilitarian would agree that for altruism to be valued it itself must be encoded in the valuer's own utility function, tautologically so. Someone who values personal procreation over "charities" is as moral as the perfect altruist, each fulfilling their respective utility functions.

Much of the "children as economic caretakers when you reach old age" misses the point. In modern societies, the imperative is less on providing material comfort (though that motif is still present, just less so than in comparison to previous ages) and more on "having people around who give a damn about you".

People who (if you do it right) don't need to be bought, or to be entertained using one's public persona, but who have access to your inner thoughts and care about you because you constructed them that way, providing both nature and nurture. Someone to be there, not to pay the bills but to enjoy and celebrate life, and let you share in that experience (and vice versa).

When you do see someone taking care of someone else for extended periods of time, is it typically a friend, or a relative? That may be too generic, but even in our subpopulation I've yet to hear of the High-IQ-Solstice-friends who then move in with each other once one of them loses his edge due to onsetting dementia. Cameraderie and warm fuzzies between friends are nice and all, but concerning their perceived scope are ultimately a fleeting illusion.

To the obvious response of "yea, look how well those parent-child relationships typically work out, check out all the lonely parents in nursing homes", I'd say "correct for the generic case, but these people ain't doing it right":

Just as guns don't grow on trees, neither does parenting. As with optimizing most other human activity, brains help. If you exchanged the Silicon Valley population with randomly chosen humans with innovative products as the yardstick, you'd be quick to conclude that human advancement is doomed and that in any case it's time to climb back up dem trees, once we lost enough weight for the branches not to break. Wrong study sample, especially as a base for your own personal decisions.

I had a terminal value that I wanted to reproduce. So I have a small child, we're trying for another, and I have also donated sperm. (In the UK, if you donate viable sperm, it is pretty much certain to be used - there's a terrible shortage. So I'm going to have more kids. Free kids! Raised by someone who actively sought to have kids! They'll get my name when they turn 18, perhaps they'll get in touch ...)

Now that I have one, I can tell you that I'm enjoying this hugely. She takes up a huge amount of my time and attention. But it is utterly fascinating to watch a small intelligence develop, to watch each skill come online. She's also really cool. I like her. I'm glad her mother had two kids already, so I had someone experienced on hand ...

If you don't have a terminal value to reproduce, I'm not sure I'd actively recommend having kids anyway. But it's still pretty good IMO. Frequently exhausting, but good.

If you're smart and male, even if you don't have a terminal value to reproduce, donate sperm. Donate all they'll take.

So, how important all these deliberations will be when you girlfriend/fiance/wife looks at you and says "I really want to have a baby with you"?

And this is why you should ask your future girlfriend/fiance/wife's opinion about having children.

This was actually almost the first questions we discussed before really getting together.

Great comment. And some men also just want kids, without looking for logical justifications. And it can happen suddenly. Discussing things beforehand helps, but it's not a guarantee that you or your partner won't change.

Should we assume it's always the female partner who wants to have a child and the male who doesn't?

Of course not, I was talking in the context of the parent post which I assume was made by a male.

You correctly assumed that I am male, but incorrectly assumed that am heterosexual, not that it matters. I'd like to echo what Locaha said.

((Unbeknownst to the perp, the term "fiance" he so unwittingly used ("girlfriend/fiance/wife") typically referred to a male. Little did he know that not only would others miss that inclusion of the correct scenario, but that he himself would as well.))

I am father of four and would like to add my view to this.

| The Practical Case

| 1) yes kids do take a lot of time and effort, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - lots of things that are rewarding require a lot of effort, such as learning a language or a new skill.

I fully agree with this. I like being a parent and playing with my children as well as educating them and observing their development. There are difficult times when there is conflict between parent and child when the child wants more than the parents want to provide esp. when the children compete among each other (ev-psych-wise explained by the mismatch between child interests and parent interests and the inter-child interests). But parts of the conflicts are more due to constraints of our society. Traffic (which is harder than predotory animals). Obligatory schooling. Complexity of society and media.

As a rationalist I can correctly assign my stress and conflict due to these effects to their sources (biology/society) instead of being dissatisfied with parent life due to stress and perceived child misdevelopment.Instead I am rewarded with the positive effects I do see that come out of my role as a parent.

2) Great parenting is extremely important for raising well adjusted, intelligent kids [...]

Well. What I read is that the work of parents accounts statistically to roughly one third of the observed differences. Statistically and on average. That doesn't say anything about the variance and which differences can be made.

As with most human achievements I'd guess that if you fully concentrate your energy and affection onto parenting that you should be able to achieve exceptional results (albeit at the risk of possibly very negative ones).

This is tentatively supported e.g. by this study that shows that indeed the parenting style didn't have as much effect as the total amount of parent involvement: http://jea.sagepub.com/content/14/2/250.short

We may not be able to shape the future live of our children but I always assumed that we can surely affect the future knowledge of our children. Even if puberty resets all the values we may have tried to establish the knowledge will most likely not be discarded (at least not if the child becomes a rationalist). At worst the knowledge will not applicable to the path the child goes. But that can be hedged against by focussing on general and procedural knowledge. And regarding values questioned after puberty: I think it is unlikely that the child will discard values it is happy with. And a happy safe youth (not neccessaaryly a simple one) will make this more likely.

| The Financial Case

The spendings may be significant but here I'd like to adapt your reasoning from point 1: "lots of things that are rewarding cost a lot, such as a cool car and experience rich holiday." If you are a conscious parent and gain satisfaction from parenting you may intentionally choose children over societies consum good. Of course you can't reduce the costs to zero.

I have read that the satisfaction from children doesn't increase further after the second child (or at least it doesn't exceed the increase in effort more than two children make. But economics of scale esp. financially just start to set in with two children. A lot of goods can be reused: clothing (esp. for smaller children), romms and furniture, trips (counting the fraction of child cost). Most significant is the time cost: Caring for four children doesn't cost you more time than caring for a single one (it is much more demanding though).

It is therefor rational from a rational utilitarian point of view that some couples should have no children and some many. In in that case you should choose the classical division of labour and one parent specializes in parenting (not neccessarily the women) with the other being the 'provider'. That is something I alway have wondered: Why do all people seem to assume that both parents should do equal shares of work, household and child care. That is often plain inefficient and robs them both the opportunity to specialize and invest full energy into what they do best.

| The Moral Case

I will don't want to address the morality of parenting here. I have already written too long of a comment above. I only want to say that I think that morality is a function of the structure of the society (you might say of the advancement or freedom of the society) and that I personally value freedom and happyness probably less high then 90% of this society.

I think it is a good point to look farther into the furture than one generation.

I'd also like to say that if you choose a child for moral reasons you are probably in for a surprise wehen your child reaches puberty and questions all your reasoning. Can you deal with the dissatisfaction if your child turns out quite different from what you intended in such a case?

In particular I think that happyness is overvalued or too simplistically reduced to short term joy. I'd rather like to see a more balanced valuation which allows some bad experiences (if they don't hurt you in the long run you may learn a lot from it) and provides a rich experience and favors baseline satisfaction. I think we can learn a lot from less 'developed' countries where people are often more 'happy' than we.

Tag: parenting

Why do all people seem to assume that both parents should do equal shares of work, household and child care.

Mostly for political reasons, I guess.

The rational part is that one day the parents may get into conflict and instead of playing cooperatively they will start playing against each other. At that moment the one which focused last years on their professional skills will have an advantage against the one which focused on child care. Dividing the household and child care is the most simple (and most likely suboptimal) way to reduce this advantage.

Most significant is the time cost: Caring for four children doesn't cost you more time than caring for a single one (it is much more demanding though). It is therefor rational from a rational utilitarian point of view that some couples should have no children and some many.

In my opinion this is suboptimal in a similar way. Many people want to have their own biological children. I believe a better solution would be somewhere in a direction of caring for the children together. Somewhere between an extended family and a kindergarten; like a small private kindergarten where the parents are close friends with the caretakers. Sometimes the role of the caretaker can be changed, but it is not necessary for everyone to do it. If rationalists in some parts of the world are already moving to live closer together, this seems like a logical next step, if they decide to have children. With a critical mass of rationalists at some place we could probably invent some kind of a pyramid scheme, where the older children would take care of the younger children, so less adult supervision would be needed. This could be mixed with homeschooling, etc.

Somewhere between an extended family and a kindergarten; like a small private kindergarten where the parents are close friends with the caretakers.

That, right there, is one of my fondest dreams. To get my tiny scientists out of the conformity-factory and someplace where they can flourish (even more). Man, if this was happening in my town, in a heartbeat I'd rearrange my work schedule to spend part of the week being a homeschooler.

Also, deontic concerns about forcing existence on people.

As Apprentice points out the heritability of prosocial behaviors such as cooperativeness, empathy and altruism is 0.5, and I think most people here are aware that IQ has a heritability around that number as well and is a pretty good predictor of life outcomes. If you want to increase the number of people in the world that are like yourself, then having children is a great way of doing so.

I would submit that most people are not very good about judging whether they are prosocial geniuses. (This goes double for people who are likely to be reading this.)

Also: inasmuch as the problem with sperm (and egg) donation is lack at the demand rather than supply end, surely one should seek to enter in on the demand side. Perhaps you really are a prosocial genius, but surely you are not the prosocialest geniusest. You probably suck in other ways too.

Also: heritability is not contribution, but that's veering towards a debate we've had and mostly exhausted already.

Moreover, the people you would save by donating to charity would also have children and those children would have children all of whom might require yet more aid in the future. Thus the short term gains in QALYs that giving to GiveWell recommended charities provides lead to a long term drain of resources and human capital.

That "might" is doing a lot of work here. The overall effect of economic development is to greatly reduce fertility.

I've updated away from "No; in the unlikely event that I decide I want kids at some point in the future, there are plenty of kids that need adopting" toward "It's probably a good idea, if my DNA turns out to be sufficiently awesome (measurement pending)" over the past year or so, which I believe is due largely to things I've read at LessWrong and LWSphere blogs. In particular, the idea of heritable intelligence being negatively correlated with number of offspring finally started to concern me enough that I started treating it as a problem to be solved.

But I am in no position to be planning for that sort of thing, for a number of reasons that I whine about too much as it is. So my efforts will be directed toward changing those reasons, ad victorium.

If you're smart and healthy (bad vision notwithstanding), donate sperm. Free kids! Raised by someone who actively sought to have kids!

There's probably a section in How to Lukeprog For Dummies about making more Lukeprogs. Donate sperm and spread the foundations of your abilities!

three aspects of parenting that I suspect are the main reasons why people choose to have kids or not: the financial case, the moral case, and the practical case

None of these are reasons to choose to have kids; they are all reasons not to. That is, even if you refute them, you still haven't made a positive case.

This brings up the issue of whether or not you "owe" your child an all expenses paid college education. I wouldn't rule out only paying partially for your child's college education especially since this calculation assumes only one child. I would be interested to hear more thoughts on this matter.

I don't feel obligated to provide any college tuition to any of my children; I certainly haven't ruled it out, but to have had their prospective existence hinge on going to a college or not seems to wildly exagerate the importance of a college degree.

I also tend to think the other financial costs of having a child are overblown due to a desire for convenience or status (that is, there are cheaper ways of doing things that may not signal high status, but that is true of everything really)

Why are you not mentioning that we Humans are hardcoded per hormones to want to reproduce?

(Prepuberty me realized that, and precommited to remember that it might be a good idea to ignore that voice in your head telling you to have kids without bringing forth arguments)

Are we really, though? We may be, but it's not necessary. We are hardcoded to want sex, and before contraception, that was sufficient to make us reproduce.

There are a lot of women who report strong emotions to having children when they reach a certain age. To me that looks "hardcoded".

Studies indicate that the normal range of parenting styles have little impact. But the normal range is grossly sub-optimal. So, this research says nothing about the impact of optimal parenting.

Scientific research on parenting has provided superior evidence-based methods that have not been widely adopted by parents due to poor technology transfer in this area. In fact., it's normal for parents chronically employ methods that have been known for decades to be counterproductive.

Certain behaviors are called "behavior traps". Once they are learned it's hard to unlearn them. The behaviors are intrinsically reinforcing and there is a behavioral barrier to unlearning them.

Not eating veggies seems to be a behavior trap. It's not uncommon for picky eating to start around age 2 become a lifetime habit. Parents tend to use counter productive methods in an attempt to address picky eating. Evidence-based methods are available but not widely used.

I conjecture that optimal evidence-based parenting methods have a huge impact on the outcome of adult unhealthy eating behaviors.

I would make a different argument than Pinker's in favor of the notion that parenting matters.

Studies show that the normal range of parenting has a limited impact on outcomes. I will grant that.

The normal range of parenting styles is dominated by sub-optimal parenting, so studying the normal range tells you nothing about the impact of optimal parenting methods. Scientific research has provided evidenced-based parenting methods that are superior to those commonly practiced, but the technology transfer has mostly failed, in particular when it comes to getting most parents to practice the most effective methods. In fact, parents commonly chronically engage in actions known to be counterproductive.

So the issue of whether optimal parenting would have a bigger impact is mostly an open question.