As I understand it, there is a phenomenon among transgender people where no matter what they do they can't help but ask themselves the question, "Am I really an [insert self-reported gender category here]?" In the past, a few people have called for a LessWrong-style dissolution of this question. This is how I approach the problem.

There are two caveats which I must address in the beginning.

The first caveat has to do with hypotheses about the etiology of the transgender condition. There are many possible causes of gender identity self-reports, but I don't think it's too controversial to propose that at least some of the transgender self-reports might result from the same mechanism as cisgender self-reports. Again, the idea is that there is some 'self-reporting algorithm', that takes some input that we don't yet know about, and outputs a gender category, and that both cisgender people and transgender people have this. It's not hard to come up with just-so stories about why having such an algorithm and caring about its output might have been adaptive. This is, however, an assumption. In theory, the self-reports from transgender people could have a cause separate from the self-reports of cisgender people, but it's not what I expect.

The second caveat has to do with essentialism. In the past calls for an article like this one, I saw people point out that we reason about gender as if it is an essence, and that any dissolution would have to avoid this mistake. But there's a difference between describing an algorithm that produces a category which feels like an essence, and providing an essentialist explanation. My dissolution will talk about essences because the human mind reasons with them, but my dissolution itself will not be essentialist in nature.

Humans universally make inferences about their typicality with respect to their self-reported gender. Check Google Scholar for 'self-perceived gender typicality' for further reading. So when I refer to a transman, by my model, I mean, "A human whose self-reporting algorithm returns the gender category 'male', but whose self-perceived gender typicality checker returns 'Highly atypical!'"

And the word 'human' at the beginning of that sentence is important. I do not mean "A human that is secretly, essentially a girl," or "A human that is secretly, essentially a boy,"; I just mean a human. I postulate that there are not boy typicality checkers and girl typicality checkers; there are typicality checkers that take an arbitrary gender category as input and return a measure of that human's self-perceived typicality with regard to the category.

So when a transwoman looks in the mirror and feels atypical because of a typicality inference from the width of her hips, I believe that this is not a fundamentally transgender experience, not different in kind, but only in degree, from a ciswoman who listens to herself speak and feels atypical because of a typicality inference from the pitch of her voice.

Fortunately, society's treatment of transgender people has come around to something like this in recent decades; our therapy proceeds by helping transgender people become more typical instances of their self-report algorithm's output.

Many of the typical traits are quite tangible: behavior, personality, appearance. It is easier to make tangible things more typical, because they're right there for you to hold; you aren't confused about them. But I often hear reports of transgender people left with a nagging doubt, a lingering question of "Am I really an X?, which feels far more slippery and about which they confess themselves quite confused.

To get at this question, I sometimes see transgender people try to simulate the subjective experience of a typical instance of the self-report algorithm's output. They ask questions like, "Does it feel the same to be me as it does to be a 'real X'?" And I think this is the heart of the confusion.

For when they simulate the subjective experience of a 'real X', there is a striking dissimilarity between themselves and the simulation, because a 'real X' lacks a pervasive sense of distress originating from self-perceived atypicality.

But what I just described in the previous sentence is itself a typicality inference, which means that this simulation itself causes distress from atypicality, which is used to justify future inferences of self-perceived atypicality!

I expected this to take more than one go-around.

Let's review something Eliezer wrote in Fake Causality:

One of the primary inspirations for Bayesian networks was noticing the problem of double-counting evidence if inference resonates between an effect and a cause.  For example, let's say that I get a bit of unreliable information that the sidewalk is wet.  This should make me think it's more likely to be raining.  But, if it's more likely to be raining, doesn't that make it more likely that the sidewalk is wet?  And wouldn't that make it more likely that the sidewalk is slippery?  But if the sidewalk is slippery, it's probably wet; and then I should again raise my probability that it's raining...

If you didn't have an explicit awareness that you have a general human algorithm that checks the arbitrary self-report against the perceived typicality, but rather you believed that this was some kind of special, transgender-specific self-doubt, then your typicality checker would never be able to mark its own distress signal as 'Typical!', and it would oscillate between judging the subjective experience as atypical, outputting a distress signal in response, judging its own distress signal as atypical, sending a distress signal about that, etc.

And this double-counting is not anything like hair length or voice pitch, or even more slippery stuff like 'being empathetic'; it's very slippery, and no matter how many other ways you would have made yourself more typical, even though those changes would have soothed you, there would have been this separate and additional lingering doubt, a doubt that can only be annihilated by understanding the deep reasons that the tangible interventions worked, and how your mind runs skew to reality.

And that's it. For me at least, this adds up to normality. There is no unbridgeable gap between the point at which you are a non-X and the point at which you become an X. Now you can just go back to making yourself as typical as you want to be, or anything else that you want to be.

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Gah. Given we can't even measure or answer "is this what it's like to be another human?", let's not bring political/social identity into this forum.

"Politics is the mind-killer" was a good try, but it turns out to not be an evolutionarily stable strategy: if the people with good epistemology stay away from anything that looks too "political", all communities end up getting dominated by people with bad epistemologies who aren't afraid of getting political. We need a discipline of "defensive politics": clever strategies and social technologies to keep communities and institutions focused on their original purpose (in our case, advancing the art of human rationality), even as they recruit newcomers who (like all humans) have their own goals only partially aligned with the community's goals.

if the people with good epistemology stay away from anything that looks too "political", all communities end up getting dominated by people with bad epistemologies who aren't afraid of getting political.

Disagree. There are multiple communities, and one can very reasonably say "that's a fine topic, but not for here". This is what I mean to say - I'm not disagreeing or claiming that it's unimportant or even claiming that it's not fit for rationalists to have opinions on. I'm saying that it's a topic which this forum is bad at and I'd rather it be discussed elsewhere.

There are 7 upvotes so far, and a fair bit of discussion, so this is apparently not a unanimous opinion. I'll probably make a similar objection to new discussion posts on politically-charged topics, but as always you should feel free to ignore me.

I think this topic is really only as political as you make it. Enough of the top voices in the LessWrong/Rationality community are in (apparent) concurrence on transgender identity as a whole that this seems to be reasonably uncontroversial premise to take.

In my opinion, it's nice to see rationality applied to more real-world understanding problems.

I think this topic is really only as political as you make it.

In other words, only if we go along with the PC position and the large amount of anti-epistemology necessary to sustain it.

I read the article twice, but I have to admit that I have no idea what it is talking about. I do understand which tribal affiliation one signals by upvoting it, but I fail to extract the factual statements that I could either agree or disagree with.

The article starts with a hypothesis that "at least some of the transgender self-reports might result from the same mechanism as cisgender self-reports". Okay, so this tries to compare some X to Y, except that I have no idea what either of them means. Maybe I am dense, but taking myself as an example of "cisgender", I guess that "mechanism of cisgender self-reports" translated to plain English means "if someone asks Viliam whether he is a boy or a girl, what exactly causes his answer to be 'a boy'?"

Uhm, I guess my answer would be this: I have a penis, and people with penises are typically called boys, and I am following this traditional naming scheme, simply because I have no idea what else could I follow when asked a question like this. I also have facial hair, which correlates with the ownership of the penis, so you can make a probabilistic guess even when my pants are on, and you would assign quite high probability to the answer that happens to be true.

What else is there? I could mention feeling attracted to women, but that's about one's sexual orientation, not gender. (Lesbians are also attracted to women, that doesn't make them boys, right?) What else? Sorry if I forgot something important, but this feels like the whole story to me. Or at least its most important part.

So back to the hypothesis... it suggests that transgender people may give the same answer as me for the same reason...

Translated to plain English again, the hypothesis says that a person born with a vagina, when asked whether they are a boy or a girl, would answer 'a boy' for the same reason as I would... i.e. because they happen to have a penis. Except that they don't. Okay, so now I am completely confused.

Well... at this moment my best guess about WTF is the author trying to say, is that other cisgender people have some special -- unknown to me -- reason why they answer the question "are you a boy or a girl" the way they do. Which would mean that I am actually some kind of minority, which I don't know how it's called, but it's probably something like "trans a-gender", i.e. people not caring as much as the others seemingly do about what gender they happen to be; usually going with the biological default because that is more convenient.

Does something like this exist, or did I just make that up? Is it really such a rare condition, that no one else made the same complaint I did now? ... Or is this the Emperor's-new-clothes kind of scenario, and I am being the politically incorrect asperger kid here?

Which would mean that I am actually some kind of minority, which I don't know how it's called, but it's probably something like "trans a-gender", i.e. people not caring as much as the others seemingly do about what gender they happen to be; usually going with the biological default because that is more convenient.

The term you're looking for is cis by default.

For an example of someone who does seem to have a gender identity and it matches their biological sex, see e.g. these posts. Being mostly "cis by default" myself, many parts of those posts don't resonate with me any more than they would if instead of being about men and women they being about straight-haired and curly-haired people.

The term you're looking for is cis by default.

That seems like it. Thanks!

Although I object against the name "cis by default". To explain why, to me this seems like the natural categories:

1) people not identifying with a gender
2a) people identifying with a gender that matches their sex
2b) people identifying with a gender that does not match their sex

However, calling X an "Y by default" suggests that the categories go:

1) cis
1a) cis by default (a special subset of cis)
2) trans

That seems obviously wrong. Not identifying with a gender is not a special case of identifying with the gender. (Well, only in the sense that "zero is a special case of a number, so e.g. a non-king is just a special kind of king who happens to own zero kingdoms". But when someone insists on using that, it seems obvious that their goal is to cleverly divert debate from the differences between the kings and the peasants.)

Furthermore, looking at the poll at the linked article, there are more people in the "cis by default" category than in the "cis by not-default". Although that is obviously not a representative sample of the population. But anyway, calling non-X an "X by default" is forcing a connotation -- specifically the connotation is that "cis" (which is silently equivocated with "cis by not-default") are the majority of the population (which was not proven yet), and more importantly, that anyone who is not a "trans" is a "cis" (silently equivocated with "cis by not-default").

Returning to the original article, it says that "trans people identify with their gender for the same reasons cis people do", which connotationally means "everyone does exactly the same thing, so there is nothing to explain here".

But if we use "cis by default" and "cis by not-default" as separate categories, the same statement becomes "trans people identify with their gender for the same reasons as cis-by-not-default people do", which as far as I know may be perfectly true, but still leaves open the -- in my opinion interesting -- question of "so, why exactly do they both do that?".

To related this to the previous debates, maybe Gram_Stone and Zack_M_Davis are both right -- maybe the inner motives of trans people and cis-by-not-default people are the same, and they both happen to be of two kinds which I will very simply call (1) overdose by sexual hormones, and (2) enjoyment of role-playing the gender.

I don't think it's too controversial to propose that at least some of the transgender self-reports might result from the same mechanism as cisgender self-reports. Again, the idea is that there is some 'self-reporting algorithm', that takes some input that we don't yet know about, and outputs a gender category, and that both cisgender people and transgender people have this

I claim that this is knowably false. Rather than there are being any sort of gender-identity switch or self-reporting mechanism in the brain, there are two distinct classes of psychological conditions that motivate the development of a "gender identity" inconsistent with anatomic sex.

One of these etiologies is indeed a brain intersex condition (sufficiently behaviorally-masculine girls or behaviorally-feminine boys, who are a better fit for the gender role of the other anatomical sex).

The other etiology, far more common in natal males than females, is actually more like a sexual orientation (termed autogynephilia, "love of oneself as a woman") than a gender identity: we used to call these people "transvestites", men who derived emotional comfort and sexual pleasure from pretending to be women (and who sometimes availed themselves of feminizing hormones), but who typically didn't insist that they were literally an instance of the same natural category as biologically-female people.

That explanation seems too simple to explain the broad range and variety of gender identities we see in the wild. Remember, gender is a performance with lots of nuanced moving parts, of which exponentially many possible combinations exist. It seems trivially fallacious to limit a discussion of gender identity to only people who express strong feelings of having mismatching biology.

too simple

In the absence of a more complicated theory that makes sufficiently more precise predictions, simple theories are better than pretending not to have a theory. (In order to function in the world and get along with other humans, your brain is going to be constantly making predictions about human behavior in accordance with some implicit theory of human psychology, even if the part of you that talks doesn't realize this.)

the broad range and variety of gender identities we see in the wild

I agree that we see a very broad range of self-reported gender identities in the wild! However, as an aspiring epistemic rationalist, I consider self-reports of gender identities to be merely a kind of behavior that needs to be explained; I don't consider myself obligated to model other people the way they want me to model them. Psychology is about invalidating people's identities.

"Am I really an [insert self-reported gender category here]?"

What work is the word "really" actually doing here? ISTM that it refers to an implied assessment of typicality, in which case the actual question these folks are trying to ask is "Am I a typical [insert gender category here]?" And of course, it's quite sensible to answer "no" to this question, no matter what gender we're even talking about in the first place! The person is most likely not a typical male or female, for what it's worth - and any other question about their gender is probably highly confused. But this point of view has at least the undeniable benefit of quickly dissolving the potential feedback/resonance between "typicality judgments" and "gender judgments", simply by acknowledging the "typicality judgment" as such.

What work is the word "really" actually doing here?

How about referring to the cluster structure of gender space. Of course, then we'd reach the conclusion that there are only two genders, and the traditional assignment is people to them is the correct one.

What work is the word "really" actually doing here?

How about referring to the cluster structure of gender space. Of course, then we'd reach the conclusion that there are only two genders, and the traditional assignment is people to them is the correct one.

Another way to think about this is to consider the analogous question of whether a jellyfish is "really" a fish.

For curious readers: Most of the vast "comment graveyard" are dozens of copies of the same two or three comments.

From dozens of sockpuppets of the same user. No prizes for guessing who.

As I understand it, there is a phenomenon among transgender people where no matter what they do they can't help but ask themselves the question, "Am I really an [insert self-reported gender category here]?"

The obvious answer is "No". In fact this experience seems suspiciously like trying to make oneself belief that one believes one's gender to be X.

Humans universally make inferences about their typicality with respect to their self-reported gender. Check Google Scholar for 'self-perceived gender typicality' for further reading. So when I refer to a transman, by my model, I mean, "A human whose self-reporting algorithm returns the gender category 'male', but whose self-perceived gender typicality checker returns 'Highly atypical!'"

And the word 'human' at the beginning of that sentence is important. I do not mean "A human that is secretly, essentially a girl," or "A human that is secretly, essentially a boy,"; I just mean a human. I postulate that there are not boy typicality checkers and girl typicality checkers; there are typicality checkers that take an arbitrary gender category as input and return a measure of that human's self-perceived typicality with regard to the category.

While we're assigning categories in complete defiance to common sense and evidence, why are we so sure that the category "human" is applicable?

As I understand it, there is a phenomenon among transgender people where no matter what they do they can't help but ask themselves the question, "Am I really an [insert self-reported gender category here]?"

The obvious answer is "No". In fact this experience seems suspiciously like trying to make oneself belief that one believes one's gender to be X.

Humans universally make inferences about their typicality with respect to their self-reported gender. Check Google Scholar for 'self-perceived gender typicality' for further reading. So when I refer to a transman, by my model, I mean, "A human whose self-reporting algorithm returns the gender category 'male', but whose self-perceived gender typicality checker returns 'Highly atypical!'"

And the word 'human' at the beginning of that sentence is important. I do not mean "A human that is secretly, essentially a girl," or "A human that is secretly, essentially a boy,"; I just mean a human. I postulate that there are not boy typicality checkers and girl typicality checkers; there are typicality checkers that take an arbitrary gender category as input and return a measure of that human's self-perceived typicality with regard to the category.

While we're assigning categories in complete defiance to common sense and evidence, why are we so sure that the category "human" is applicable?

BANNED FOREVER.

Go away. This is pointless. No one wants you here. This forum is not for you.