Tangential: has their been discussion on LW of the EA implications of having kids? Personally, I would expect that having kids would at least be positive expected utility since they would inherit a good number of your genes/memes and be more likely than a person randomly chosen from the population to become effective altruists. But the opportunity costs seem really high.

I'm also curious how people feel about increasing fertility among reasonably smart people in general.

A critique of effective altruism

I recently ran across Nick Bostrom’s idea of subjecting your strongest beliefs to a hypothetical apostasy in which you try to muster the strongest arguments you can against them. As you might have figured out, I believe strongly in effective altruism—the idea of applying evidence and reason to finding the best ways to improve the world. As such, I thought it would be productive to write a hypothetical apostasy on the effective altruism movement.

(EDIT: As per the comments of Vaniver, Carl Shulman, and others, this didn't quite come out as a hypothetical apostasy. I originally wrote it with that in mind, but decided that a focus on more plausible, more moderate criticisms would be more productive.)

Contents

How to read this post

(EDIT: the following two paragraphs were written before I softened the tone of the piece. They're less relevant to the more moderate version that I actually published.)

Hopefully this is clear, but as a disclaimer: this piece is written in a fairly critical tone. This was part of an attempt to get “in character”. This tone does not indicate my current mental state with regard to the effective altruism movement. I agree, to varying extents, with some of the critiques I present here, but I’m not about to give up on effective altruism or stop cooperating with the EA movement. The apostasy is purely hypothetical.

Also, because of the nature of a hypothetical apostasy, I’d guess that for effective altruist readers, the critical tone of this piece may be especially likely to trigger defensive rationalization. Please read through with this in mind. (A good way to counteract this effect might be, for instance, to imagine that you’re not an effective altruist, but your friend is, and it’s them reading through it: how should they update their beliefs?)

(End less relevant paragraphs.)

Finally, if you’ve never heard of effective altruism before, I don’t recommend making this piece your first impression of it! You’re going to get a very skewed view because I don’t bother to mention all the things that are awesome about the EA movement.

Abstract

Effective altruism is, to my knowledge, the first time that a substantially useful set of ethics and frameworks to analyze one’s effect on the world has gained a broad enough appeal to resemble a social movement. (I’d say these principles are something like altruism, maximization, egalitarianism, and consequentialism; together they imply many improvements over the social default for trying to do good in the world—earning to give as opposed to doing direct charity work, working in the developing world rather than locally, using evidence and feedback to analyze effectiveness, etc.) Unfortunately, as a movement effective altruism is failing to use these principles to acquire correct nontrivial beliefs about how to improve the world.

By way of clarification, consider a distinction between two senses of the word “trying” I used above. Let’s call them “actually trying” and “pretending to try”. Pretending to try to improve the world is something like responding to social pressure to improve the world by querying your brain for a thing which improves the world, taking the first search result and rolling with it. For example, for a while I thought that I would try to improve the world by developing computerized methods of checking informally-written proofs, thus allowing more scalable teaching of higher math, democratizing education, etc. Coincidentally, computer programming and higher math happened to be the two things that I was best at. This is pretending to try. Actually trying is looking at the things that improve the world, figuring out which one maximizes utility, and then doing that thing. For instance, I now run an effective altruist student organization at Harvard because I realized that even though I’m a comparatively bad leader and don’t enjoy it very much, it’s still very high-impact if I work hard enough at it. This isn’t to say that I’m actually trying yet, but I’ve gotten closer.

Using this distinction between pretending and actually trying, I would summarize a lot of effective altruism as “pretending to actually try”. As a social group, effective altruists have successfully noticed the pretending/actually-trying distinction. But they seem to have stopped there, assuming that knowing the difference between fake trying and actually trying translates into ability to actually try. Empirically, it most certainly doesn’t. A lot of effective altruists still end up satisficing—finding actions that are on their face acceptable under core EA standards and then picking those which seem appealing because of other essentially random factors. This is more likely to converge on good actions than what society does by default, because the principles are better than society’s default principles. Nevertheless, it fails to make much progress over what is directly obvious from the core EA principles. As a result, although “doing effective altruism” feels like truth-seeking, it often ends up being just a more credible way to pretend to try.

Below I introduce various ways in which effective altruists have failed to go beyond the social-satisficing algorithm of establishing some credibly acceptable alternatives and then picking among them based on essentially random preferences. I exhibit other areas where the norms of effective altruism fail to guard against motivated cognition. Both of these phenomena add what I call “epistemic inertia” to the effective-altruist consensus: effective altruists become more subject to pressures on their beliefs other than those from a truth-seeking process, meaning that the EA consensus becomes less able to update on new evidence or arguments and preventing the movement from moving forward. I argue that this stems from effective altruists’ reluctance to think through issues of the form “being a successful social movement” rather than “correctly applying utilitarianism individually”. This could potentially be solved by introducing an additional principle of effective altruism—e.g. “group self-awareness”—but it may be too late to add new things to effective altruism’s DNA.

Philosophical difficulties

There is currently wide disagreement among effective altruists on the correct framework for population ethics. This is crucially important for determining the best way to improve the world: different population ethics can lead to drastically different choices (or at least so we would expect a priori), and if the EA movement can’t converge on at least their instrumental goals, it will quickly fragment and lose its power. Yet there has been little progress towards discovering the correct population ethics (or, from a moral anti-realist standpoint, constructing arguments that will lead to convergence on a particular population ethics), or even determining which ethics lead to which interventions being better.

Poor cause choices

Many effective altruists donate to GiveWell’s top charities. All three of these charities work in global health. Is that because GiveWell knows that global health is the highest-leverage cause? No. It’s because it was the only one with enough data to say anything very useful about. There’s little reason to suppose that this correlates with being particularly high-leverage—on the contrary, heuristic but less rigorous arguments for causes like existential risk prevention, vegetarian advocacy and open borders suggest that these could be even more efficient.

Furthermore, the our current “best known intervention” is likely to change (in a more cost-effective direction) in the future. There are two competing effects here: we might discover better interventions to donate to than the ones we currently think are best, but we also might run out of opportunities for the current best known intervention, and have to switch to the second. So far we seem to be in a regime where the first effect dominates, and there’s no evidence that we’ll reach a tipping point very soon, especially given how new the field of effective charity research is.

Given these considerations, it’s quite surprising that effective altruists are donating to global health causes now. Even for those looking to use their donations to set an example, a donor-advised fund would have many of the benefits and none of the downsides. And anyway, donating when you believe it’s not (except for example-setting) the best possible course of action, in order to make a point about figuring out the best possible course of action and then doing that thing, seems perverse.

Non-obviousness

Effective altruists often express surprise that the idea of effective altruism only came about so recently. For instance, my student group recently hosted Elie Hassenfeld for a talk in which he made remarks to that effect, and I’ve heard other people working for EA organizations express the same sentiment. But no one seems to be actually worried about this—just smug that they’ve figured out something that no one else had.

The “market” for ideas is at least somewhat efficient: most simple, obvious and correct things get thought of fairly quickly after it’s possible to think them. If a meme as simple as effective altruism hasn’t taken root yet, we should at least try to understand why before throwing our weight behind it. The absence of such attempts—in other words, the fact that non-obviousness doesn’t make effective altruists worried that they’re missing something—is a strong indicator against the “effective altruists are actually trying” hypothesis.

Efficient markets for giving

It’s often claimed that “nonprofits are not a market for doing good; they’re a market for warm fuzzies”. This is used as justification for why it’s possible to do immense amounts of good by donating. However, while it’s certainly true that most donors aren’t explicitly trying to purchase utililty, there’s still a lot of money that is.

The Gates Foundation is an example of such an organization. They’re effectiveness-minded and with $60 billion behind them. 80,000 Hours has already noted that they’ve probably saved over 6 million lives with their vaccine programs alone—given that they’ve spent a relatively small part of their endowment, they must be getting a much better exchange rate than our current best guesses.

So why not just donate to the Gates Foundation? Effective altruists need a better account of the “market inefficiencies” that they’re exploiting that Gates isn’t. Why didn’t the Gates Foundation fund the Against Malaria Foundation, GiveWell’s top charity, when it’s in one of their main research areas? It seems implausible that the answer is simple incompetence or the like.

A general rule of markets is that if you don’t know what your edge is, you’re the sucker. Many effective altruists, when asked what their edge is, give some answer along the lines of “actually being strategic/thinking about utility/caring about results”, and stop thinking there. This isn’t a compelling case: as mentioned before, it’s not clear why no one else is doing these things.

Inconsistent attitude towards rigor

Effective altruists insist on extraordinary rigor in their charity recommendations—cf. for instance GiveWell’s work. Yet for many ancillary problems—donating now vs. later, choosing a career, and deciding how “meta” to go (between direct work, earning to give, doing advocacy, and donating to advocacy), to name a few—they seem happy to choose between the not-obviously-wrong alternatives based on intuition and gut feelings.

Poor psychological understanding

John Sturm suggests, and I agree, that many of these issues are psychological in nature:

I think a lot of these problems take root a commitment level issue:

I, for instance, am thrilled about changing my mentality towards charity, not my mentality towards having kids. My first guess is that - from an EA and overall ethical perspective - it would be a big mistake for me to have kids (even after taking into account the normal EA excuses about doing things for myself). At least right now, though, I just don’t care that I’m ignoring my ethics and EA; I want to have kids and that’s that.

This is a case in which I’m not “being lazy” so much as just not trying at all. But when someone asks me about it, it’s easier for me to give some EA excuse (like that having kids will make me happier and more productive) that I don’t think is true - and then I look like I’m being a lazy or careless altruist rather than not being one at all.

The model I’m building is this: there are many different areas in life where I could apply EA. In some of them, I’m wholeheartedly willing. In some of them, I’m not willing at all. Then there are two kinds of areas where it looks like I’m being a lazy EA: those where I’m willing and want to be a better EA… and those where I’m not willing but I’m just pretending (to myself or others or both).

The point of this: when we ask someone to be a less lazy EA, we are (1) helping them do a better job at something they want to do, and (2) trying to make them either do more than they want to or admit they are “bad”.

In general, most effective altruists respond to deep conflicts between effective altruism and other goals in one of the following ways:

  1. Unconsciously resolve the cognitive dissonance with motivated reasoning: “it’s clearly my comparative advantage to spread effective altruism through poetry!”
  2. Deliberately and knowingly use motivated reasoning: “dear Facebook group, what are the best utilitarian arguments in favor of becoming an EA poet?”
  3. Take the easiest “honest” way out: “I wouldn’t be psychologically able to do effective altruism if it forced me to go into finance instead of writing poetry, so I’ll become an effective altruist poet instead”.

The third is debatably defensible—though, for a community that purports to put stock in rationality and self-improvement, effective altruists have shown surprisingly little interest in self-modification to have more altruistic intentions. This seems obviously worthy of further work.

Furthermore, EA norms do not proscribe even the first two, leading to a group norm that doesn’t cause people to notice when they’re engaging in a certain amount of motivated cognition. This is quite toxic to the movement’s ability to converge on the truth. (As before, effective altruists are still better than the general population at this; the core EA principles are strong enough to make people notice the most obvious motivated cognition that obviously runs afoul of them. But that’s not nearly good enough.)

Historical analogues

With the partial exception of GiveWell’s history of philanthropy project, there’s been no research into good historical outside views. Although there are no direct precursors of effective altruism (worrying in its own right; see above), there is one notably similar movement: communism, where the idea of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” originated. Communism is also notable for its various abject failures. Effective altruists need to be more worried about how they will avoid failures of a similar class—and in general they need to be more aware of the pitfalls, as well as the benefits, of being an increasingly large social movement.

Aaron Tucker elaborates better than I could:

In particular, Communism/Socialism was a movement that was started by philosophers, then continued by technocrats, where they thought reason and planning could make the world much better, and that if they coordinated to take action to fix everything, they could eliminate poverty, disease, etc.

Marx totally got the “actually trying vs. pretending to try” distinction AFAICT (“Philosophers have only explained the world, but the real problem is to change it” is a quote of his), and he really strongly rails against people who unreflectively try to fix things in ways that make sense to the culture they’re starting from—the problem isn’t that the bourgeoisie aren’t trying to help people, it’s that the only conception of help that the bourgeoisie have is one that’s mostly epiphenomenal to actually improving the lives of the proletariat—giving them nice boureoisie things like education and voting rights, but not doing anything to improve the material condition of their life, or fix the problems of why they don’t have those in the first place, and don’t just make them themselves.

So if Marx got the pretend/actually try distinction, and his followers took over countries, and they had a ton of awesome technocrats, it seems like it’s the perfect EA thing, and it totally didn’t work.

Monoculture

Effective altruists are not very diverse. The vast majority are white, “upper-middle-class”, intellectually and philosophically inclined, from a developed country, etc. (and I think it skews significantly male as well, though I’m less sure of this). And as much as the multiple-perspectives argument for diversity is hackneyed by this point, it seems quite germane, especially when considering e.g. global health interventions, whose beneficiaries are culturally very foreign to us.

Effective altruists are not very humanistically aware either. EA came out of analytic philosophy and spread from there to math and computer science. As such, they are too hasty to dismiss many arguments as moral-relativist postmodernist fluff, e.g. that effective altruists are promoting cultural imperialism by forcing a Westernized conception of “the good” onto people they’re trying to help. Even if EAs are quite confident that the utilitarian/reductionist/rationalist worldview is correct, the outside view is that really engaging with a greater diversity of opinions is very helpful.

Community problems

The discourse around effective altruism in e.g. the Facebook group used to be of fairly high quality. But as the movement grows, the traditional venues of discussion are getting inundated with new people who haven’t absorbed the norms of discussion or standards of proof yet. If this is not rectified quickly, the EA community will cease to be useful at all: there will be no venue in which a group truth-seeking process can operate. Yet nobody seems to be aware of the magnitude of this problem. There have been some half-hearted attempts to fix it, but nothing much has come of them.

Movement building issues

The whole point of having an effective altruism “movement” is that it’ll be bigger than the sum of its parts. Being organized as a movement should turn effective altruism into the kind of large, semi-monolithic actor that can actually get big stuff done, not just make marginal contributions.

But in practice, large movements and truth-seeking hardly ever go together. As movements grow, they get more “epistemic inertia”: it becomes much harder for them to update on evidence. This is because they have to rely on social methods to propagate their memes rather than truth-seeking behavior. But people who have been drawn to EA by social pressure rather than truth-seeking take much longer to change their beliefs, so once the movement reaches a critical mass of them, it will become difficult for it to update on new evidence. As described above, this is already happening to effective altruism with the ever-less-useful Facebook group.

Conclusion

I’ve presented several areas in which the effective altruism movement fails to converge on truth through a combination of the following effects:

  1. Effective altruists “stop thinking” too early and satisfice for “doesn’t obviously conflict with EA principles” rather than optimizing for “increases utility”. (For instance, they choose donations poorly due to this effect.)
  2. Effective altruism puts strong demands on its practitioners, and EA group norms do not appropriately guard against motivated cognition to avoid them. (For example, this often causes people to choose bad careers.)
  3. Effective altruists don’t notice important areas to look into, specifically issues related to “being a successful movement” rather than “correctly implementing utilitarianism”. (For instance, they ignore issues around group epistemology, historical precedents for the movement, movement diversity, etc.)

These problems are worrying on their own, but the lack of awareness of them is the real problem. The monoculture is worrying, but the lackadaisical attitude towards it is worse. The lack of rigor is unfortunate, but the fact that people haven’t noticed it is the real problem.

Either effective altruists don’t yet realize that they’re subject to the failure modes of any large movement, or they don’t feel motivation to do the boring legwork of e.g. engaging with viewpoints that your inside view says are annoying but that the outside view says are useful on expectation. Either way, this bespeaks worrying things about the movement’s staying power.

More importantly, it also indicates an epistemic failure on the part of effective altruists. The fact that no one else within EA has done a substantial critique yet is a huge red flag. If effective altruists aren’t aware of strong critiques of the EA movement, why aren’t they looking for them? This suggests that, contrary to the emphasis on rationality within the movement, many effective altruists’ beliefs are based on social, rather than truth-seeking, behavior.

If it doesn’t solve these problems, effective-altruism-the-movement won’t help me achieve any more good than I could individually. All it will do is add epistemic inertia, as it takes more effort to shift the EA consensus than to update my individual beliefs.

Are these problems solvable?

It seems to me that the third issue above (lack of self-awareness as a social movement) subsumes the other two: if effective altruism as a movement were sufficiently introspective, it could probably notice and solve the other two problems, as well as future ones that will undoubtedly crop up.

Hence, I propose an additional principle of effective altruism. In addition to being altruistic, maximizing, egalitarian, and consequentialist we should be self-aware: we should think carefully about the issues associated with being a successful movement, in order to make sure that we can move beyond the obvious applications of EA principles and come up with non-trivially better ways to improve the world.

Acknowledgments

Thanks to Nick Bostrom for coining the idea of a hypothetical apostasy, and to Will Eden for mentioning it recently.

Thanks to Michael Vassar, Aaron Tucker and Andrew Rettek for inspiring various of these points.

Thanks to Aaron Tucker and John Sturm for reading an advance draft of this post and giving valuable feedback.

Cross-posted from http://www.benkuhn.net/ea-critique since I want outside perspectives, and also LW's comments are nicer than mine.

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Disclaimer: I like and support the EA movement.

I agree with Vaniver, that it would be good to give more time to arguments that the EA movement is going to do large net harm. You touch on this a bit with the discussion of Communism and moral disagreement within the movement, but one could go further. Some speculative ways in which the EA movement could have bad consequences:

  • The EA movement, driven by short-term QALYs, pulls effort away from affecting science and policy in rich countries with long-term impacts to brief alleviation of problems for poor humans and animals
  • AMF-style interventions increase population growth and lower average world income and education, which leads to fumbling of long-run trajectories or existential risk
  • The EA movement screws up population ethics and the valuation of different minds in such a way that it doesn't just fail to find good interventions, but pursues actively terrible ones (e.g. making things much worse by trading off human and ant conditions wrongly)
  • Even if the movement mostly does not turn towards promoting bad things, it turns out to be easier to screw things up than to help, and foolish proponents of conflicting sub-ideologies collectively make things worse for everyone, PD style; you see this in animal activists enthused about increasing poverty to reduce meat consumption, or poverty activists happy to create huge deadweight GDP losses as long as resources are transferred to the poor,
  • Something like explicit hedonistic utilitarianism becomes an official ideology somewhere, in the style of Communist states (even though the members don't really embrace it in full on every matter, they nominally endorse it as universal and call their contrary sentiments weakness of will): the doctrine implies that all sentient beings should be killed and replaced by some kind of simulated orgasm-neurons and efficient caretaker robots (or otherwise sacrifice much potential value in the name of a cramped conception of value), and society is pushed in this direction by a tragedy of the commons; also, see Robin Hanson
  • Misallocating a huge mass of idealists' human capital to donation for easily measurable things and away from more effective things elsewhere, sabotages more effective do-gooding for a net worsening of the world
  • The EA movement gets into politics and can't clearly evaluate various policies with huge upside and downside potential because of ideological blinders, and winds up with a massive net downside
  • The EA movement finds extremely important issues, and then turns the public off from them with its fanaticism, warts, or fumbling, so that it would have been better to have left those issues to other institutions

Hmm. I didn't interpret a hypothetical apostasy as the fiercest critique, but rather the best critique--i.e. weight the arguments not by "badness if true" but by something like badness times plausibility.

But you may be right that I unconsciously biased myself towards arguments that were easier to solve by tweaking the EA movement's direction. For instance, I should probably have included a section about measurability bias, which does seem plausibly quite bad.

I don't have time to explain it now, so I will state the following with the hope merely stating it will be useful as a data point. I think Carl's critique was more compelling, more relevant if true (which you agree), and also not that much less likely to be true than yours. Certainly, considering the fact of how destructive they would be if true, and the fact they are almost as likely to be true as yours, I think Carl's is the best critique.

In fact, the 2nd main reason I don’t direct most of my efforts to what most of the EA movement is doing is because I do think some weaker versions of Carl’s points are true. (The 1st is simply that I’m much better at finding out if his points are true and other more abstract things than at doing EA stuff).

I had the same sense of "This is the kind of criticism where you say 'we need two Stalins'" as one of the commenters. That doesn't mean its correct, and I, like some others, particularly liked the phrase "pretending to actually try". It also seems to me self-evident that this is a huge step forward and a huge improvement over merely pretending to try. Much of what is said here is correct, but none of it is the kind of criticism which would kill EA if it were correct. For that you would have to cross over into alleging things which are false.

From my perspective, by far the most obvious criticism of EA is to take the focus on global poverty at face value and then remark that from the pespective of 100,000,000 years later it is unlikely that the most critical point in this part of history will have been the distribution of enough malaria nets. Since our descendants will reliably think this was not the most utility-impactful intervention 100,000,000 years later, we should go ahead and update now, etc. And indeed I regard the non-x-risk parts of EA as being important only insofar as they raise visibility and eventually get more people involved in, as I would put it, the actual plot.

Excuse me, but this sounds to me like a terrible argument. If the far future goes right, our descendents will despise us as complete ignorant barbarians and won't give a crap what we did or didn't do. If it goes wrong (ie: rocks fall, everyone dies), then all those purported descendents aren't a minus on our humane-ness ledger, they're a zero: potential people don't count (since they're infinite in number and don't exist, after all).

Besides, I damn well do care how people lived 5000 years ago, and I would certainly hope that my great-to-the-Nth-grandchildren will care how I live today. This should especially matter to someone whose idea of the right future involves being around to meet those descendents, in which case the preservation of lives ought to matter quite a lot.

God knows you have an x-risk fetish, but other than FAI (which carries actual benefits aside from averting highly improbable extinction events) you've never actually justified it. There has always been some small risk we could all be wiped out by a random disaster. The world has been overdue for certain natural disasters for millenia now, and we just don't really have a way to prevent any of them. Space colonization would help, but there are vast and systematic reasons why we can't do space colonization right now.

Except, of course, the artificial ones: nuclear winter, global warming, blah blah blah. Those, however, like all artificial problems, are deeply tied in with the human systems generating them, and they need much more systematic solutions than "donate to this anti-global-warming charity to meliorate the impact or reduce the risk of climate change killing everyone everywhere". But rather like the Silicon Valley start-up community, there's a nasty assumption that problems too large for 9 guys in a basement simply don't exist.

You seem to suffer a bias where you simply say, "people are fools and the world is insane" and thus write off any notion of doing something about it, modulo your MIRI/CFAR work.

Judging by the overwhelmingly favorable response, it certainly came out as we-need-two-Stalins criticism, whether or not I "intended" it that way. (One of the less expected side effects of this post was to cause me to update towards devoting more time to things that, unlike writing, don't give me a constant dribble of social reinforcement.)

I think my criticism includes yours, in the following sense: if we solve the "we fail to converge on truth because too much satisficing" problem, we will presumably stop saying things like "but global poverty could totally be the best thing for the far future!" (which has been argued) and start to find the things that are actually the best thing for the far future without privileging certain hypotheses.

start to find the things that are actually the best thing for the far future

I have strong doubts about your (not personal but generic) ability to evaluate the far-future consequences of most anything.

Cross-posted from http://www.benkuhn.net/ea-critique since I want outside perspectives, and also LW's comments are nicer than mine.

They are! I wish I had realized you cross-posted this here before I commented there. So also cross-posting my comment:


First, good on you for attempting a serious critique of your views. I hope you don’t mind if I’m a little unkind in responding to to your critique, as that makes it easier and more direct.

Second, the cynical bit: to steal Yvain’s great phrase, this post strikes me as the “we need two Stalins!” sort of apostasy that lands you a cushy professorship. (The pretending to try vs. actually trying distinction seems relevant here.) The conclusion- “we need to be sufficiently introspective”- looks self-serving from the outside. Would being introspective happen to be something you consider a comparative advantage? Is the usefulness of the Facebook group how intellectually stimulating and rigorous you find the conversations, or how many dollars are donated as a result of its existence?

Third, the helpful bit: instead of saying “this is what I think would make EA slightly less bad,” consider an alternative prompt: ten years from now, you look back at your EA advocacy as a huge waste of your time. Why?

(Think about that for a while; my answer to that question can wait. These sort of ‘pre-mortems’ are very useful in all sorts of situations, especially because it’s often possible to figure out information now which suggests the likelihood of a plan succeeding or failing, or it’s possible to build in safeguards against particular kinds of failures. Here, I’m focusing on the “EA was a bad idea to begin with” sorts of the failures, not the “EA’s implementation disappointed me, because other people weren’t good enough,” a la a common response to communism’s failures.)

  1. Philosophical differences might be lethal. It could be the case that there isn’t a convincing population ethics, and EAers can’t agree on which causes to promote, and so Givewell turns into a slightly more effective version of Charity Navigator. (Note this actually showed up in Charity Navigator’s recent screed- “we don’t tell people which causes to value, just which charities spend money frivolously.”)

  2. It might turn out that utilitarianism fails, for example, because of various measurement problems, which could be swept under the rug until someone actually tried to launch a broad utilitarian project, when their impracticality became undeniable. (Compare to, say, communists ignoring problems of information cost or incentives.)

  3. Consider each of the four principles. It’s unlikely that maximization will fail individually- if you know that one charity can add 50 human QALYs with your donation, and another charity can add 20 human QALYs with your donation, you’ll go with the first. Gathering the data is costly, but analysts are cheap if you’re directing enough donations. But it could fail socially, as in http://xkcd.com/871/ - any criticism of another person’s inefficiency might turn them off charity, or you. EA might be the hated hipsters of the charity world. (I personally don’t expect that this is a negative on net, because of the huge quality difference between charitable investments- if you have half as many donations used ten times as well, you’ve come out ahead- but it could turn out that way.)

  4. Similarly, consequentialism seems unlikely to fail, but what consequences we care about might be significantly different. (Maximizing fuzzies and maximizing QALYs looks different, but the first seems like it could be more effective charity than the second!)

  5. Egalitarianism might fail. The most plausible hole here seems to be the existential risk / control the singularity arguments, where it turns out that malaria just doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things.

  6. Altruism might fail. It might be the case that people don’t actually care about other people anywhere near the level that they care about themselves, and the only people that do are too odd to build a broad, successful movement. (Dipping back into cynical, I must say that I found the quoted story about kids amusing. “My professed beliefs are so convincing, but somehow I don’t feel an urge to commit genetic suicide to benefit unrelated people. It’s almost like that’s been bred into me somehow.”) Trying looks sexy, but actually trying is way costlier and not necessarily sexier than pretending to try, so it’s not clear to me why someone wouldn’t pretend to try. (Cynically again: if you do drop out of EA because you landed a spouse and now it just seems so much less important than your domestic life, it’s unlikely you’ll consider past EA advocacy as a waste if it helped you land that spouse, but likely you’ll consider future EA advocacy a waste.)

Thanks for cross-posting! You didn't realize because I didn't think to cross-post until after you had commented there. (Sorry for being unclear.) I've added a link to this cross-post to the text on benkuhn.net for people who want to comment.

First, good on you for attempting a serious critique of your views. I hope you don’t mind if I’m a little unkind in responding to to your critique, as that makes it easier and more direct.

Go ahead! Obviously this is important enough that Crocker's Rules apply.

Second, the cynical bit: to steal Yvain’s great phrase, this post strikes me as the “we need two Stalins!” sort of apostasy that lands you a cushy professorship. (The pretending to try vs. actually trying distinction seems relevant here.) The conclusion- “we need to be sufficiently introspective”- looks self-serving from the outside. Would being introspective happen to be something you consider a comparative advantage? Is the usefulness of the Facebook group how intellectually stimulating and rigorous you find the conversations, or how many dollars are donated as a result of its existence?

You've correctly detected that I didn't spend as much time on the conclusion as the criticisms. I actually debated not proposing any solutions, but decided against it, for a couple reasons:

  1. The solution is essentially "we need to actually care about these problems I just listed" but phrased more nicely. I think any solution to the problems I listed involves actually caring about them more than we currently do.
  2. The end of this post is the best place I could think of to propose a solution that would actually get people's attention.
  3. I didn't want to end without saying anything constructive.

Incidentally, I don't actually consider being thoughtful about social dynamics a comparative advantage. I think we need more, like, sociologists or something--people who are actually familiar with the pitfalls of being a movement.

Third, the helpful bit: instead of saying "this is what I think would make EA slightly less bad," consider an alternative prompt: ten years from now, you look back at your EA advocacy as a huge waste of your time. Why?

I see now that it's not obvious from the finished product, but this was actually the prompt I started with. I removed most of the doom-mongering (of the form "these problems are so bad that they are going to sink EA as a movement") because I found it less plausible than the actual criticisms and wanted to maximize the chance that this post would be taken seriously by effective altruists. But I stand by these criticisms as the things that I think are most likely to torpedo EA right now. I'm less concerned about one of the principles failing than I am that the principles won't be enough--that people won't apply them properly because of failures of epistemology.

Incidentally, I don't actually consider being thoughtful about social dynamics a comparative advantage. I think we need more, like, sociologists or something--people who are actually familiar with the pitfalls of being a movement.

That deflates that criticism. For the object-level social dynamics problem, I think that people will not actually care about those problems unless they are incentivised to care about those problems, and it's not clear to me that is possible to do.

What does the person who EA is easy for look like? My first guess is a person who gets warm fuzzies from rigor. But then that suggests they'll overconsume rigor and underconsume altruism.

I'm less concerned about one of the principles failing than I am that the principles won't be enough--that people won't apply them properly because of failures of epistemology.

Is epistemology the real failing, here? This may just be the communism analogy, but I'm not seeing how the incentive structure of EA is lined up with actually getting things done rather than pretending to actually get things done. Do you have a good model of the incentive structure of EA?

I see now that it's not obvious from the finished product, but this was actually the prompt I started with. I removed most of the doom-mongering (of the form "these problems are so bad that they are going to sink EA as a movement") because I found it less plausible than the actual criticisms and wanted to maximize the chance that this post would be taken seriously by effective altruists.

Interesting. The critique you've written strikes me as more "nudging" than "apostasy," and while nudging is probably more effective at improving EA, keeping those concepts separate seems useful. (The rest of this comment is mostly meta-level discussion of nudging vs. apostasy, and can be ignored by anyone interested in just the object-level discussion.)

I interpreted the idea of apostasy along the lines of Avoiding Your Belief's Real Weak Points. Suppose you knew that EA being a good idea was conditional on there being a workable population ethics, and you were uncertain if a workable population ethics existed. Then you would say "well, the real weak spot of EA is population ethics, because if that fails, then the whole edifice comes crashing down." This way, everyone who isn't on board with EA because they're pessimistic about population ethics says "aha, Ben gets it," and possibly people in EA say "hm, maybe we should take the population ethics problem more seriously." This also fits Bostrom's idea- you could tell your past self "look, past Ben, you're not taking this population ethics problem seriously, and if you do, you'll realize that it's impossible and EA is wasted effort." (And maybe another EAer reads your argument and is motivated to find that workable population ethics.)

I think there's a moderately strong argument for sorting beliefs by badness-if-true rather than badness-if-true times plausibility because it's far easier to subconsciously nudge your estimate of plausibility than your estimate of badness-if-true. I want to say there's an article by Yvain or Kaj Sotala somewhere about "I hear criticisms of utilitarianism and think 'oh, that's just uninteresting engineering, someone else will solve that problem' but when I look at other moral theories I think 'but they don't have an answer for X!' and think that sinks their theory, even though its proponents see X as just uninteresting engineering," which seems to me a good example of what differing plausibility assumptions look like in practice. Part of the benefit of this exercise seems to be listing out all of the questions whose answers could actually kill your theory/plan/etc., and then looking at them together and saying "what is the probability that none of these answers go against my theory?"

Now, it probably is the case that the total probability is small. (This is a belief you picked because you hold it strongly and you've thought about it a long time, not one picked at random!) But the probably may be much higher than it seems at first, because you may have dismissed an unpleasant possibility without fully considering it. (It also may be that by seriously considering one of these questions, you're able to adjust EA so that the question no longer has the chance of killing EA.)

As an example, let's switch causes to cryonics. My example of cryonics apostasy is "actually, freezing dead people is probably worthless; we should put all of our effort into making it legal to freeze live people once they get a diagnosis of a terminal condition or a degenerative neurological condition" and my example of cryonics nudging is "we probably ought to have higher fees / do more advertising and outreach." The first is much more painful to hear, and that pain is both what makes it apostasy and what makes it useful to actually consider. If it's true, the sooner you know the better.

Arguably trying for apostasy, failing due to motivated cognition, and producing only nudging is a good strategy that should be applied more broadly.

Re your meta point (sorry for taking a while to respond): I now agree with you that this should not be called a "(hypothetical) apostasy" as such. Evidence which updated me in that direction includes:

  1. Your argument
  2. Referencing a "hypothetical apostasy" seems to have already lead to some degradation of the meaning of the term; cf. Diego's calling his counter-argument also an apostasy. (Though this may be a language barrier thing?)
  3. This article got a far more positive response than my verbal anticipations expected (though possibly not than System 1 predicted).

Thanks for calling this out. Should I edit with a disclaimer, do you think?

I think there's a moderately strong argument for sorting beliefs by badness-if-true rather than badness-if-true times plausibility

This seems to encourage Pascal's mugging. In fact, it's even worse than Pascal's mugging; in Pascal's mugging, at least the large amount of possible damage has to be large enough that the expected value is large even after considering its small probability. Here, the amount of possible damage just has to be large and it doesn't even matter that the plausibility is small.

(If you think plausibility can't be substituted for probability here, then replace "Pascal's mugging" with "problems greatly resembling Pascal's mugging").

Good work! Though, this is much weaker than my model of a hypothetical apostasy, which is informed by my actual deconversion from Christianity, which involved writing a thoroughly withering critique of theism and Christianity, not a "here's how Christianity could be tweaked and improved."

If I were to write a hypothetical apostasy for EA, I might take the communism part further and try to argue that enacting global policies on the basis of unpopular philosophical views was likely to be disastrous. Or maybe that real-world utilitarianism is so far from intuitive human values (which have lots of emotional deontological principles and so on) that using it in the real world would cause the humans to develop all kinds of pathologies. Or something more damning that what you've written. But if you published such a thing then you'd have lots more people misunderstand it and be angry at you, too. :)

Edit: I see that Carl has said this better than I did.

I'd like to see more critical discussion of effective altruism of the type in this post. I particularly enjoyed the idea of "pretending to actually try." People doing sloppy thinking and then making up EA-sounding justifications for their actions is a big issue.

As Will McAskill said in a Facebook comment, I do think that a lot of smart people in the EA movement are aware of the issues you're bringing up and have chosen to focus on other things. Big picture, I find claims like "your thing has problem X so you need to spend more resources on fixing X" more compelling when you point to things we've been spending time on and say that we should have done less of those things and more of the thing you think we should have been doing. E.g., I currently spend a lot of my time on research, advocacy, and trying to help improve 80,000 Hours and I'd be pretty hesitant to switch to writing blogposts criticizing mistakes that people in the EA community commonly make, though I've considered doing so and agree this would be help address some of the issues you've identified. But I would welcome more of that kind of thing.

I disagree with your perspective that the effective altruism movement has underinvested in research into population ethics. I wrote a PhD thesis which heavily featured population ethics and aimed at drawing out big-picture takeaways for issues like existential risk. I wouldn't say I settled all the issues, but I think we'd make more progress as movement if we did less philosophy and more basic fact-finding of the kind that goes into GiveWell shallow cause overviews.

Disclosure: I am a Trustee for the Centre for Effective Altruism and I formerly worked at GiveWell as a summer research analyst.

The main thing that I personally think we don't need as much of is donations to object-level charities (e.g. GiveWell's top picks). It's unclear to me how much this can be funged into more self-reflection for the general person, but for instance I am sacrificing potential donations right now in order to write this post and respond to criticism...

I think in general, a case that "X is bad so we need more of fixing X" without specific recommendations can also be useful in that it leaves the resource allocation up to individual people. For instance, you decided that your current plans are better than spending more time on social-movement introspection, but (hopefully) not everyone who reads this post will come to the same conclusion.

I think "writing blogposts criticizing mistakes that people in the EA community commonly make" is a moderate strawman of what I'd actually like to see, in that it gets us closer to being a successful movement but clearly won't be sufficient on its own.

Why do you think basic fact-finding would be particularly helpful? Seems to me that if we can't come to nontrivial conclusions already, the kind of facts we're likely to find won't help very much.

we don't need as much of is donations to object-level charities

These donations are useful for establishing credibility as a real movement and not just "people talking on the internet".

Yes, I'm well aware. I never said they were completely unuseful, just that IMO the marginal value is lower than resources spent elsewhere.

This is MUCH better than I expected from the title. I strongly agree with essentially the entire post, and many of my qualms about EA are the result of my bringing these points up with, e.g. Nick Beckstead and not seeing them addressed or even acknowledged.

I would love to hear about your qualms with the EA movement if you ever want to have a conversation about the issue.

Edited: When I first read this, I thought you were saying you hadn't brought these problems up with me, but re-reading it it sounds like you tried to raise these criticisms with me. This post has a Vassar-y feel to it but this is mostly criticism I wouldn't say I'd heard from you, and I would have guessed your criticisms would be different. In any case, I would still be interested in hearing more from you about your criticisms of EA.

I spent many hours explaining a sub-set of these criticisms to you in Dolores Park soon after we first met, but it strongly seemed to me that that time was wasted. I appreciate that you want to be lawful in your approach to reason, and thus to engage with disagreement, but my impression was that you do not actually engage with disagreement, you merely want to engage with disagreement, basically, I felt that you believe in your belief in rational inquiry, but that you don't actually believe in rational inquiry.

I may, of course, be wrong, and I'm not sure how people should respond in such a situation. It strongly seems to me that a) leftist movements tend to collapse in schizm, b) rightist movements tend to converge on generic xenophobic authoritarianism regardless of their associated theory. I'd rather we avoid both of those situations, but the first seems like an inevitable result of not accommodating belief in belief, while the second seems like an inevitable result of accommodating it. My instinct is that the best option is to not accommodate belief in belief and to keep a movement small enough that schizm can be avoided. The worst thing for an epistemic standard is not the person who ignores or denies it, but the person who tries to mostly follow it when doing so feels right or is convenient while not acknowledging that they aren't following it when it feels weird or inconvenient, as that leads to a community of people with such standards engaging in double-think WRT whether their standards call for weird or inconvenient behavior. OTOH, my best guess is that about 50 people is as far as you can get with my proposed approach.

What I mostly remember from that conversation was disagreeing about the likely consequences of "actually trying". You thought elite people in the EA cluster who actually tried had high probability of much more extreme achievements than I did. I see how that fits into this post, but I didn't know you had loads of other criticism about EA, and I probably would have had a pretty different conversation with you if I did.

Fair enough regarding how you want to spend your time. I think you're mistaken about how open I am to changing my mind about things in the face of arguments, and I hope that you reconsider. I believe that if you consulted with people you trust who know me much better than you, you'd find they have different opinions about me than you do. There are multiple cases where detailed engagement with criticism has substantially changed my operations.

I'm partially unsure if I should be commenting here since I do not know Nick that well, or the other matters that could be involved in this discussion. Those two points nevertheless, not only it seems to me that your impression of him is mistaken, but that the truth lies in the exact opposite direction. If you check his posts and other writings, it seems he has the remarkable habit of taking into consideration many opposing views (e.g.: his thesis) and also putting a whole more weight into others opinions (e.g.: common as sense as a prior) than the average here at LW. I would gather others must have, at worst, a different opinion of him than the one you presented, otherwise he wouldn't be in the positions he's right now, both at FHI and GWWC. That's my two cents. Not even sure if he would agree with all of it, but I would image some data points wouldn't do harm.

As a practicing socialist, I found the comparison to Communism illuminating and somewhat disturbing.

You've already listed some of the major, obvious aspects in which the Effective Altruism movement resembles Communism. Let me add another: failure to take account of local information and preferences.

Information: Communism (or as the socialists say: state capitalism, or as the dictionaries say: state socialism -- centrally planned economies!) failed horrifically at the Economic Calculation Problem because no central planning system composed of humans can take account of all the localized, personal information inherent in real lives. Markets, on the other hand, can take advantage of this information, even if they're not always good at it (see for a chuckle: "Markets are Efficient iff P=NP"). Effective altruism, being centrally planned, suffers this problem.

Preferences: the other major failure of Communist central planning was its foolish claim that the entirety of society had a single, uniform set of valuations over economic inputs and outputs which was determined by the planning committee in the Politburo. The result was, of course, that the system produced vast amounts of things the Politburo thought were Very Important (such as weapons, to Smash the Evil Capitalists), and vast amounts of capital inputs (that sometimes sat uselessly because nobody really wanted them), but very, very small amounts of things most people actually preferred (like meat for household consumption).

Given, as you've mentioned, the overwhelmingly uniform and centrally-planned nature of the Effective Altruism movement, you should expect to suffer exactly the same systematic problems as Communism. My best recommendation to fix the problem is to come up with an optimization metric for Doing Good that doesn't involve your movement's having to personally know and plan all the facts and all the values of each altruistic intervention from the top down. Find a metric by which you can encourage the philanthrophic/charitable system to optimize itself from the bottom up, and then unleash it!

Thanks, Ben. I agree with about half of the points and disagree with the other half. I think some of the claims, e.g., that other people haven't raised these issues, are untrue.

Effective altruists often express surprise that the idea of effective altruism only came about so recently. [...] But no one seems to be actually worried about this—just smug that they’ve figured out something that no one else had.

Honestly, I think this idea is one of EA's bigger oversights -- not that people haven't noticed that EA is recent, but that people don't realize that it's not recent. The components of EA have each existed for millennia, and movements combining several parts are also ancient. This particular combination may be a little different from past movements, but not more than past movements have been from each other.

On the whole, I think EAs vastly overestimate their value relative to everyone else in the world who are actually doing some really important work as well but don't happen to be part of our social circles. I agree that EAs (myself included) would do well to explore more different perspectives on the world beyond the boundaries of their community.

Effective altruists often express surprise that the idea of effective altruism only came about so recently. For instance, my student group recently hosted Elie Hassenfeld for a talk in which he made remarks to that effect, and I’ve heard other people working for EA organizations express the same sentiment. But no one seems to be actually worried about this—just smug that they’ve figured out something that no one else had.

I do think this is worrying, or at least worth looking into. This is part of why I've been looking into the history of earning to give (I, II, III).

To my mind, the worst thing about the EA movement are its delusions of grandeur. Both individually and collectively, the EA people I have met display a staggering and quite sickening sense of their own self-importance. They think they are going to change the world, and yet they have almost nothing to show for their efforts except self-congratulatory rhetoric. It would be funny if it wasn't so revolting.

I recently ran across Nick Bostrom’s idea of subjecting your strongest beliefs to a hypothetical apostasy in which you try to muster the strongest arguments you can against them.

This is generally known as playing the devil's advocate, and its an idea that long predates Nick Bostrum.

Tangential: has their been discussion on LW of the EA implications of having kids? Personally, I would expect that having kids would at least be positive expected utility since they would inherit a good number of your genes/memes and be more likely than a person randomly chosen from the population to become effective altruists. But the opportunity costs seem really high.

I'm also curious how people feel about increasing fertility among reasonably smart people in general.

I think a lot of these criticisms are very valid. Many of them are stuff I had been thinking about but your post does a really good job of explaining them better than I ever could.

I guess I have a somewhat unique take on the whole EA thing, since I'm one of the few (probably) non-white people here. I'd be happy to elaborate if you wish.

(Edit, Later. This is related to the top level replies by CarlShulman and V-V, but I think it's a more general issue, or at least a more general way of putting the same issues.)

I'm wondering about a different effect: over-quantification and false precision leading to bad choices in optimization as more effort goes into the most efficient utility maximization charities.

If we have metrics, and we optimize for them, anything that our metrics distort or exclude will have an exaggerated exclusion from our conversation. For instance, if we agree that maximizing human health is important, and use evidence that shows that something like fighting disease or hunger in fact has a huge positive effect on human health, we can easily optimize towards significant population growth, then a crash due to later resource constraints or food production volatility, killing billions. (It is immaterial if this describes reality, the phenomenon of myopic optimization still stands.)

Given that we advocate optimizing, are we, as rationalists, likely to fall prey to this sort of behavior when we pick metrics? If we don't understand the system more fully, the answer is probably yes; there will always be unanticipated side-effects in incompletely understood systems, by definition, and the more optimized a system becomes, the less stable it is to shocks.

More diversity of investment to lower priority goals and alternative ideals, meaning less optimization, as currently occurs, seem likely to mitigate these problems.

A few thoughts (disclaimer: I do NOT endorse effective altruism):

  • The main reason most people donate to charities may be to signal status to others, or to "purchase warm fuzzies" (a form of status signalling to one's own ego).
    Effective altruists claim to really care about doing good with their donations, but theirs could be just a form of status signalling targeted at communities where memes such as consequentialism, utilitarianism, and "rationality" are well received, and/or similarly a way to "purchase warm fuzzies" for somebody wishing to maintain a self-image of utilitarian/"rationalist".
    To this end, effective altruism doesn't have to be actually effective, it could just superficially pretend to be.

  • Effective altruism is based on a form of total utilitarianism, thus it is subject to the standard problems of this moral philosophy:

  • Interpersonal utility comparison: metrics such as QUALY are supposed to be interpersonally comparable proxies for utility, but they are highly debatable.
  • The repugnant conclusion: optimizing for cumulative QUALYs may lead to a world where the majority of the population live lives only barely worth living. Note that this isn't merely a theoretical concern: as Carl Shulman pointed out, GiveWell's top-ranked charities might well be already pushing in that direction.
  • Difficulties in distinguishing supererogatory actions from morally required actions, as your example of the person questioning their own desire to have kids displays.

  • Even if you assume that optimizing cumulative QUALYs is the proper goal of charitable donation, there are still problems of measurement and incentives of all the involved actors, much like the problems that plagued Communism:

  • Estimating the expected marginal QUALYs per dollar of a charitable donation is difficult. Any method would have to rely on a number of relatively strong assumptions. Charities have an incentive to find and exploit any loophole in the evaluation methods, as per Campbell's law/Goodhart's law/Lucas critique.
  • Individual donors can't plausibly estimate the expected marginal QUALYs/$ of charities, they have to rely on meta-charities like GiveWell. But how you estimate the performance of GiveWell? Given that estimation is costly, GiveWell has no incentive to become any better, it actually has an incentive to become worse. Even if the people currently running GiveWell are honest and competent, they might fall victim to greed or self-serving biases that could make them overestimate their own performance, especially since they lack any independent form of evaluation or model to compare with. Or the honest and competent people could be replaced by less honest and less competent people. Or GiveWell as a whole could be driven out of business and replaced by a competitor that spends less on estimation quality and more on PR. The whole industry has a real possibility of becoming a Market for Lemons.

The main reason most people donate to charities may be to signal status to others, or to "purchase warm fuzzies" (a form of status signalling to one's own ego).

Effective altruists claim to really care about doing good with their donations, but theirs could be just a form of status signalling targeted at communities where memes such as consequentialism, utilitarianism, and "rationality" are well received, and/or similarly a way to "purchase warm fuzzies" for somebody wishing to maintain a self-image of utilitarian/"rationalist".

To this end, effective altruism doesn't have to be actually effective, it could just superficially pretend to be.

Yes, I think this there are people for whom this is true. However, the best way to get such people to actually do good is to make "pretending to actually do good" and "actually doing good" equivalently costly, by calling them out when they do the latter (EDIT: former).

I personally want effective altruism to actually do good, not just satisfy people's social desires (though as Diego points out, this is also important). If it turns out that the point of the EA movement becomes to help people signal to a particular consequentialist set, then my hypothetical apostasy will become an actual apostasy, so I'm still going to list this as a critique.

Individual donors can't plausibly estimate the expected marginal QUALYs/$ of charities, they have to rely on meta-charities like GiveWell. But how you estimate the performance of GiveWell? Given that estimation is costly, GiveWell has no incentive to become any better, it actually has an incentive to become worse. Even if the people currently running GiveWell are honest and competent, they might fall victim to greed or self-serving biases that could make them overestimate their own performance, especially since they lack any independent form of evaluation or model to compare with. Or the honest and competent people could be replaced by less honest and less competent people. Or GiveWell as a whole could be driven out of business and replaced by a competitor that spends less on estimation quality and more on PR. The whole industry has a real possibility of becoming a Market for Lemons.

GiveWell spends a lot of time making estimating their performance easier (nearly everything possible is transparent, "mistakes" tab prominently displayed on the website, etc.). And I know some people take their raw material (conversations, etc.) and come to fairly different conclusions based on different values. GiveWell also solicits external reviews.

I think this is as good of an incentive structure as we're going to get (EDIT: not actually--as Carl Shulman points out, more competitors would be better, but without a lot of extra effort, it's hard to beat). Fundamentally, it seems like anything altruistic we do is going to have to rely on at least a few "heroic" people who are responding to a desire to actually do good rather than social signalling.

Everything else you said, I agree with. Are those your totality of reasons for not endorsing EA? If not, I'd like to hear your others (by PM if you like).

GiveWell spends a lot of time making estimating their performance easier (nearly everything possible is transparent, "mistakes" tab prominently displayed on the website, etc.). And I know some people take their raw material (conversations, etc.) and come to fairly different conclusions based on different values. GiveWell also solicits external reviews.

I think this is as good of an incentive structure as we're going to get

I think it would be better with more competitors in the same space keeping each other honest.