Rationality & Low-IQ People

This post is to raise a question about the demographics of rationality: Is rationality something that can appeal to low-IQ people as well?

I don't mean in theory, I mean in practice. From what I've seen, people who are concerned about rationality (in the sense that it has on LW, OvercomingBias, etc.) are overwhelmingly high-IQ.

Meanwhile, HPMOR and other stories in the "rationality genre" appeal to me, and to other people I know. However I wonder: Perhaps part of the reason they appeal to me is that I think of myself as a smart person, and this allows me to identify with the main characters, cheer when they think their way to victory, etc. If I thought of myself as a stupid person, then perhaps I would feel uncomfortable, insecure, and alienated while reading the same stories.

So, I have four questions:

1.) Do we have reason to believe that the kind of rationality promoted on LW, OvercomingBias, CFAR, etc. appeals to a fairly normal distribution of people around the IQ mean? Or should we think, as I suggested, that people with lower IQ's are disposed to find the idea of being rational less attractive?

2.) Ditto, except replace "being rational" with "celebrating rationality through stories like HPMOR." Perhaps people think that rationality is a good thing in much the same way that being wealthy is a good thing, but they don't think that it should be celebrated, or at least they don't find such celebrations appealing.

3.) Supposing #1 and #2 have the answers I am suggesting, why? 

4.) Making the same supposition, what are the implications for the movement in general? 


Note: I chose to use IQ in this post instead of a more vague term like "intelligence," but I could easily have done the opposite. I'm happy to do whichever version is less problematic.

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Most people go through life using cultural memes that they soak up from their environment. These cultural memes have had lots of selective pressure acting on them, so most of the time they won't be obviously harmful: for example, most cultures don't have memes advocating that you stick your hand in fires. Following these cultural memes is a low-variance strategy: you might not become overwhelmingly successful this way, but you'll also avoid many failure modes.

A basic aspect of LW-style rationality involves questioning and rethinking everything, including these cultural memes. As such, it's a high-variance strategy: you might end up with new memes that are much better or much worse than standard memes. This might be okay if you're quite good at questioning and rethinking things, but if you aren't (and even if you are!), you might afflict yourself with a memetic immune disorder and head towards all sorts of failure modes as a result (joining a cult being the sort of stereotypical thing).

I think most people will be averse to LW-style rationality as part of a general aversion to things that seem too weird, and I think this is probably overall a reasonable aversion for most people to have, as it helps them avoid many failure modes.

These cultural memes have had lots of selective pressure acting on them, so most of the time they won't be obviously harmful

For the meme; not necessarily for the person who holds it. Dying for one's fatherland can be a very successful meme. And that's exactly why questioning memes is often a good thing for the questioner.

I think the reason most people are averse to questioning is simply due to the social drive to conform, which does not strongly depend on the quality of the norms you're conforming to. And the drive to associate in cliques and dislike outsiders, which sometimes causes people to associate in similar-IQ cliques and dislike those other stupid/smart people and their rationalist/irrational ideas.

This suggests that instead of trying to influence the behaviors of low-IQ folks, we're better off trying to influence the behavior of folks whose IQs are slightly lower than ours, then, having influenced them successfully, aim for a slightly lower IQ, etc. Figure that the dumber you are, the greater the degree to which you have learned to distrust your own bad reasoning and "go with the herd". So to get to the low-IQ folks, create a wave throughout the population starting with the high-IQ folks.

(Actually a more straightforward implication of this might be to work harder saturating the high-IQ echelons with LW ideas, since they still haven't been saturated, then start working on lower-IQ folks.)

Excellent points.

I observe this in regard to religion and it's memes, and I think it applies to the non-rationalist community generally.

I think most people will be averse to LW-style rationality as part of a general aversion to things that seem too weird...

It perhaps makes more sense to replace "too weird" with "too different from the cultural norm". Christianity, for instance, has very weird beliefs compared to what science and common sense tells us. Adherents persist in believing in large part to continue conforming to the cultural norm, despite it's weirdness.

The interesting question (to me) is whether someone who is not predisposed to enjoying LW-style rationality ought to pursue it if they seek to optimize their happiness. If you are a happy Christian who believes God is madly in love with you and can't wait to bring up to your mansion in heaven post mortem, then LW is going to be depressing.

Even if you're just a regular old None or agnostic who likes to believe in warm fuzzy concepts like "everything happening for a reason" and Karm and Serendipity, then LW's deterministic, magic-killing, purely materialist views are a bit of a buzzkill.

It is possible that rationality training is a net bad for ceratin individuals because ignorance really is bliss in many circumstances.

I have been tossing around the idea of not-high-IQ rationalist fiction. Problem is, it's really hard to write. If they act rationally, people stop identifying the person as unintelligent. You get intelligence creep or an unsatisfying story.

The best route I can see is to make them well-substandard in intelligence. Rationalist!Forrest Gump, say.

ETA: Another problem is that adventures are usually sub-optimal. No one writes about the Amundsen expedition or equivalents (*) - they write about Scott expeditions.

*(except for Le Guin, who managed it because she's amazing)

If you want to make a character who's actually both a rationalist and not particularly intelligent, rather than simply being intelligent beyond the expectations of their position, I'd suggest having them know just a few basic heuristics, which are simple if not intuitive to wield.

They might not have the smarts to pick up all the subtle signs to know when someone is trying to con them, for instance, but they'll be the first person to think to communicate important information to avoid a conflict. And they understand the importance of being able to actually change their mind, so if they're experiencing doubts about something, their response would be to go to someone they think has good judgment and is likely to be impartial, ask what they think, and then accept that answer, even if it's not the one they would have been most comfortable with.

When it comes to writing, people are generally taught a set of "rules," but are told that really good writers can "break" these rules once they really learn what they're doing. But of course, nobody can really break the fundamental rules of good writing without harming the quality of their work, it's just that expert writers have a better sense of how the fundamental rules differ from the simpler, easier to understand formulations taught to beginners. A not-very-intelligent rationalist would probably be kind of like a beginning level writer. They know that the point of following the rules is to make good decisions, the way that a beginning writer knows that the point of following the rules is to produce good writing. But they would only be able to explain to a very limited extent why those rules lead to better decisions than their alternatives, and they certainly wouldn't be able to grasp the deeper rules underlying them, and understand what sort of situations function as exceptions to the more basic incarnations.

I have been tossing around the idea of not-high-IQ rationalist fiction. Problem is, it's really hard to write. If they act rationally, people stop identifying the person as unintelligent.

Don't show them thinking, show them doing. If you show their thoughts at all, show their conclusions, not their reasons. They think and reason, but you don't put it on the page. Have them be involved in matters not stereotypically associated with intelligence but which actually have scope for its application: craftsmen rather than scientists, sergeants rather than generals, etc.

In short, have them actually be as intelligent and rational as you like, but omit all the superficial clothing that people mistake for these things, and use the opposite clothing.

All right. How does this work as pro-rationality propaganda? We're not simply talking about getting rational characters, but getting rationality to appeal to mid- or low-IQ folks.

Yeah. I expect not-high-IQ rationalist fiction would involve a lot of sitting and thinking and making lists and remembering rationalist sayings, instead of just doing it all in the head on the fly.

Do we have any examples of not-high-IQ rationalists in real life? We could model fiction on how they handle things. Maybe they exist all around us, and are called "Practical."

You'd go pretty far just telling the audience the character was unintelligent, by giving them unintelligent status markers. Give them a blue-collar career, and very low academic achievement, while also coming from a stable family and average opportunity.

It's been a while since I watched it, but do you think Ben Affleck's character in Good Will Hunting was rational, but of limited intelligence?

There are scattered examples of this sort of "humble working man, who lives honest and true" throughout fiction.

It's been a while since I watched it, but do you think Ben Affleck's character in Good Will Hunting was rational, but of limited intelligence?

Yep, a pretty good example, I think

Look, you're my best friend so don't take this the wrong way, but if you're still living here in 20 years, still working construction, I'll fuckin' kill ya. Tomorrow, I'm gonna wake up and I'll be fifty, and I'll still be doing this shit. And that's alright, that's fine. But you're sitting on a winning lottery ticket and you're too scared to cash it in, and that's bullshit. Cause I'd do fucking anything to have what you got. Hanging around here is a waste of your time.

So far, so normal, you don't need to be a rationalist to say these sorts of things to make your friend start using their talents.

Every day, I come by your house, and I pick you up. We go out, have a few drinks, a few laughs, it's great. You know what the best part of my day is? It's for about ten seconds, from when I pull up at the curb to when I get to your door. Cause I think maybe I'll get up there and I'll knock on the door and you won't be there. No goodbye, no see-ya-later, no nothing. You just left.

Now this is what it looks like when a rationalist actually believes in something. You actively enjoy imagining your friend's left without a word, a horrible thing for a friend to do - because you knows that your friend starting to use their potential is so important as to drown out even being totally abandoned by them.

strong language

What about a protagonist of standard-to-high-IQ but an obvious cognitive defect? (e.g. innumeracy, illiteracy, prosopagnosia, any dissassociative disorder, severe mood disorders).

Well, that could be effective fiction but it doesn't really help connect to the everyman.

Keep in mind that people who apply serious life-changing ideas after reading about them in fiction are the exception rather than the norm. Most people who aren't exceptionally intellect-oriented need to personally encounter someone who "has something" that they themselves wish they had, and then have some reason to think that they can imitate them in that respect. Fiction just isn't it, except possibly in some indirect ways. Rationalist communities competing in the "real-world" arena of people living lives that other people want to and can emulate are a radically more effective angle for people who don't identify strongly with their intellectual characteristics.

I don't know about "low" IQ, but plenty of people who don't necessarily have genius IQ have very strong instrumental rationality.

Things like stable family life, network of friends, community, conservative approach to money, religion and charity with a social component, work ethic, temperate living, exercise, etc.

Doing these things may correlate with IQ on the low end; but it has little to do with the genius-level IQ which is so common at LW.

Seeing how common akrasia and all that is on LW, I would go as far as to say that many "normal" people are better at instrumental rationality than the people here. If you look at it from the point of view of instrumental rationality, many things here are probably just a waste of time. They might be useful at some point, but focusing on more practical things will very likely be far more useful.

edit. But this is for an individual, I think LW could be really useful for the society as whole. Raising the sanity waterline and popularizing things like effective altruism will be irreplaceably valuable.

I think you're underestimating how common akrasia is among the rest of the world. It's just not seen as that bad of a thing if people spend their time off watching TV, eating unhealthily, or spending hours on the internet.

This would be interesting to know: Do we (however we define the "we" group) really have more akrasia, or are we just more aware of it?

I think others are just more likely to call it "laziness" or "procrastination". The word "Akrasia" seems like some weird lesswrongian turn of language that doesn't really shed much more light.

Actually, I'd argue that it's the word "laziness" that obscures matters. It suggests someone who just doesn't want to work and thinks that's alright, or is at least ambiguous between that and akrasia. And procrastination is specifically postponing things all the time; not all akrasia is like that. You can acratically fail to make use of a one-time opportunity.

"I hate myself for being lazy" has 36.000 results on google, which suggests some people at least don't think it's alright (i.e. don't use the same definition as you).

But even if the term "Akrasia" was clearer than "lazy" (I agree it may be), you could say:

  • "Akrasia" is clearer than "Laziness" because it has a more precise meaning
  • "Laziness" is clearer than "Akrasia" because much more people know what the word means

I don't really think our use of the word is a problem tho, it's just worth keeping in mind that we're trading off a little bit more precision for being less understandable to the outside world. But that's always going on with jargon.

Reading this discussion makes me realise I don't have a very good mental model for what a low IQ person's internal processing is like. Most of the behaviours i tend to associate with stupidity in real life are related to rationality (e.g. excessive compartmentalisation, failure to take arguments to their logical conclusion) rather than a lack of processing power or speed.

David Ogilvy) was a highly successful advertising executive, often called "The Father of Advertising" and he created several iconic advertising campaigns. However, his IQ was very average:

Including intelligence, said he. They both took an IQ test he found in the back of a book. He got a 96 (“par for ditch diggers”), and she (his wife, Herta Lans) got 136. It changed their relationship. “Suddenly she’s pretty and clever and I’m ugly and dumb.”

source: The King of Madison Avenue: David Ogilvy and the Making of Modern Advertising

So if you're actually interested, you could look into his life.

Assuming you want to convince anyone outside our base demographic of anything, it is highly inadvisable to refer to people within 1SD of mean IQ as "low-IQ people".

I understand that on a website where the mean IQ is about 140, people with an IQ of 100 might seem dumb. But the vast majority of the population will be justifiably offended at using the term "low-IQ" to mean "people of average intelligence."

I understand that on a website where the mean IQ is about 140, people with an IQ of 100 might seem dumb. But the vast majority of the population will be justifiably offended at using the term "low-IQ" to mean "people of average intelligence."

Fortunately, as you observe, most of them are not here to be offended.

I don't know that we can rely on obscurity forever.

But mostly I'm advising him not to use that phrasing anywhere else.

Don't disagree. I don't even recommend he use it here, assuming a suitable alternative is available. In part because it is usually the incorrect word to use for the practice being attempted. For most part "only slightly high IQ people" are the ones being referred to.

Agreed. Perhaps I should have said "Normal-IQ people?" That still sounds a bit bad though.

Maybe something to the effect of "Rationality and the Average Person," which doesn't have a reference to ideas of intelligence or IQ, but keeps the idea of "How can this best be applied to the rest of the world?"

However, I don't particularly like that phrasing.

The popularity of LW rationality among high IQ people is probably strongly influenced by a quasi-aesthetic judgment that being correct is valuable unto itself. Most people (of all IQs) would also prefer to be right, but they also want to be successful, and they probably want to be successful more than they want to be right. Being successful and being rational both require effort, and the most efficient way to become successful for a low IQ individual is probably not through rationality training, but through more direct and applicable prescriptions, like reading How to Win Friends and Influence People, learning money management skills, networking, or whatever else is well-known and directly applicable to their situation. Thus, it is likely rational for low IQ people not to highly value direct rationality training, which doesn't appeal to their comparative advantages.

Everyone appreciates decreased effort, right? Much of rationality could easily be reframed as methods to avoid wasting effort. The rest should follow kind of naturally, if rationality is indeed a coherent system of thought.

Based on three sets of experiences, I'd say there is a strong overlap between people who do not value intelligence and people who have little of it (in three different ways).

First, I've worked with deaf people who are acquiring language late in life. Second, I've worked with young children. Third, I've worked with homeless people. Some of each of these are blindingly intelligent by any measure. Some are not depending on how intelligence is measured. Among the later, higher intelligence is mistrusted and seen as making trouble.

The exception in life is clergy, who are granted smarts as a good. The exception in fiction is 'nerd on a leash' - the doctor or navigator or smart guy kept for his use by a barbarian horde.

True. The same goes for other prestigious qualities - beautiful people value beauty, for instance. Generally people tend to acquire metrics for judging people according to which they are highly valued. Cf Nietzsche's theory that slaves were inclined to adopt Christianity because it "reversed the values" the Romans had in a way that benefited the slaves (e.g. poverty was seen as a virtue, wealth as a vice).

If it is possible to write successful stories of highly intelligent people who consistently fail (just think Big Bang Theory; there obviously needed to make them likeable for a general audience) then it should be equally possible to write the opposite where an average huy wins by just applying the rules.

It is a story. You could have a protagonist which in each episode applies just one rationality method (exploit one bias, apply one routine). Say he reads one chapter of the sequences at a time and is presented as unable to grasp them all at once and has to learn and concentrate a lot to get it. But then win big by .- by plot chance - applying just this method in the right circumstances.

Example:

Overconfidence and/r Planning fallacy. Story: Protagonist is middle manager. Big project is comming. Boss calls meeting to estimate project. Protagonist meticulously collects all the outside view evidence beforehand. Meeting attendees give their estimates of all the steps and sum. He gives outside view estimate but is looked down upon. Guess who is right in the ende?

I think that a lot of our traditional rationality memes (like "lose your faith in intellectual authority", "figure everything out for yourself" and "take an idea seriously if and only if you are personally convinced of it") could be especially dangerous for people who aren't very smart.

I don't consider those as "our" memes, except if you meant Western culture in general. Those seem like bad ideas, smart or not smart. I would prefer something like "Distinguish intellectual authorities that have reasons to be correlated with truth (because of the incentive structures) from authorities who derive their status from other things (success in unrelated fields, good communication skills, saying what people want to hear), and take the first kind seriously."

"Trying to figure everything out yourself" is something I associate with smart-but-not-rational people who are likely to waste a lot of time or even get things completely wrong because they noticed they were smarter than their primary school teacher, and extrapolated to deduce they were smarter than established experts, which is certainly pleasant to think!

This post is to raise a question about the demographics of rationality: Is rationality something that can appeal to low-IQ people as well?

This question is best answered if you look from the other direction: do people 10-15 IQ points higher than you benefit more from "rationality" than you do?

There's a certain conflation between being viewed as intelligent and being viewed as high-status. People who don't have the smarts to play the intellectual status game have a couple of obvious choices to increase their perceived status. They can either reject the whole "thinking well is a valuable skill" set of ideas, or they can reject evidence that says that they aren't smart and pretend to be better at the whole thinking thing than they really are.

Both of these are very big stumbling blocks for becoming a more rational and better person. In order to want to join the rationalist community, you need to have the beliefs that you aren't as capable as you could be, that thinking better is good for you, and that you can admit to mistakes without undermining your position. These beliefs are much more present among high-IQ people for what I think are obvious enough reasons that I don't need to enumerate them.

When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" — then you should abandon them.

When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

Selected part from the Kalama Sutta. Seems like a good rule of thumb; combining virtue ethics, deontology, and consequentialism. This would be my first instrumental rationality lesson for the low-IQ people. The rest of the lesson would be specific examples and discussion.

The low-IQ people would probably benefit from non-meta advice.

As a part of raising the sanity waterline, it could be useful to compose a textbook of good advice for average people. But we probably shouldn't expect to make them able to create such books for themselves.

It's like a division of labor -- the people who are good at thinking (i.e. intelligent and rational) should do the thinking. The others are more efficient when then follow such advice. Yes, this has a lot of problems. I just don't see a way to avoid them, if the person has a low IQ. And the low-IQ person is probably going to follow someone else's advice anyway, because that's all they can do. Giving them some good advice at least gives them a chance of picking a good advice to follow; because the bad advice is already there.

We should see people as what they are, not as we wish them to be.

The thing that "average" people need isn't so much a textbook as a recognition that maybe intelligent people are better role models than the latest football star or rapper.

If you don't have the status the advice that you are giving won't be heard.

Rappers are probably a bad example. Most if not all of the great rappers are notable for being extremely intelligent, especially in the sense that IQ measures.

You might want to look at The Millionaire Next Door books-- they're about people of average or slightly above average intelligence applying rationality to accumulating money.

"Intelligence" is one of my favorite examples of Reification - a cluster of concepts that were grouped together into a single word to make communication easier, and as a result is often falsely thought of as a single concept, rather than an abstract collection of several separable ideas.

Knowledge of relevant facts, algorithmic familiarity, creativity, arithmetic capabilities, spatial reasoning capabilities, awareness and avoidance of logical fallacies, and probably dozens of others are all separable concepts that all could reasonable be described as intelligence, but that correlate with each other to an unknown degree, and the effects of which can be observed in [near] isolation.

While intelligence remains useful as a word, it is a troublesome one.

IQ is no less troubling. It measures only a small fraction of the skills that could be described as intelligence. In addition, it appears to measure significantly more than just intelligence, with variation as big as 20 points being subject to cultural, or unknown environmental factors. http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1987-17534-001

One problem I remember reading about was the "odd item out" style of question historically found in many IQ tests - four objects were presented, and subjects were supposed to decide which one didn't belong. Unless 3 out of the 4 objects were identical, this task is ambiguous - and one anthropologist [citation needed] found that different cultures can have a different generally accepted "correct answer" to such a question.

TL;DR "Intelligence" isn't only vague, but it is an abstract combination of many semi-correlated skill-sets IQ on the other hand is a well-defined test, but it is not free of bias. It measures only a subset of what we would call "intelligence", and really only reliably predicts how well someone will do on future IQ tests.