Diseased thinking: dissolving questions about disease

Related to: Disguised Queries, Words as Hidden Inferences, Dissolving the Question, Eight Short Studies on Excuses

Today's therapeutic ethos, which celebrates curing and disparages judging, expresses the liberal disposition to assume that crime and other problematic behaviors reflect social or biological causation. While this absolves the individual of responsibility, it also strips the individual of personhood, and moral dignity

             -- George Will, townhall.com

Sandy is a morbidly obese woman looking for advice.

Her husband has no sympathy for her, and tells her she obviously needs to stop eating like a pig, and would it kill her to go to the gym once in a while?

Her doctor tells her that obesity is primarily genetic, and recommends the diet pill orlistat and a consultation with a surgeon about gastric bypass.

Her sister tells her that obesity is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, and that fat-ism, equivalent to racism, is society's way of keeping her down.

When she tells each of her friends about the opinions of the others, things really start to heat up.

Her husband accuses her doctor and sister of absolving her of personal responsibility with feel-good platitudes that in the end will only prevent her from getting the willpower she needs to start a real diet.

Her doctor accuses her husband of ignorance of the real causes of obesity and of the most effective treatments, and accuses her sister of legitimizing a dangerous health risk that could end with Sandy in hospital or even dead.

Her sister accuses her husband of being a jerk, and her doctor of trying to medicalize her behavior in order to turn it into a "condition" that will keep her on pills for life and make lots of money for Big Pharma.

Sandy is fictional, but similar conversations happen every day, not only about obesity but about a host of other marginal conditions that some consider character flaws, others diseases, and still others normal variation in the human condition. Attention deficit disorder, internet addiction, social anxiety disorder (as one skeptic said, didn't we used to call this "shyness"?), alcoholism, chronic fatigue, oppositional defiant disorder ("didn't we used to call this being a teenager?"), compulsive gambling, homosexuality, Aspergers' syndrome, antisocial personality, even depression have all been placed in two or more of these categories by different people.

Sandy's sister may have a point, but this post will concentrate on the debate between her husband and her doctor, with the understanding that the same techniques will apply to evaluating her sister's opinion. The disagreement between Sandy's husband and doctor centers around the idea of "disease". If obesity, depression, alcoholism, and the like are diseases, most people default to the doctor's point of view; if they are not diseases, they tend to agree with the husband.

The debate over such marginal conditions is in many ways a debate over whether or not they are "real" diseases. The usual surface level arguments trotted out in favor of or against the proposition are generally inconclusive, but this post will apply a host of techniques previously discussed on Less Wrong to illuminate the issue.

What is Disease?

In Disguised Queries , Eliezer demonstrates how a word refers to a cluster of objects related upon multiple axes. For example, in a company that sorts red smooth translucent cubes full of vanadium from blue furry opaque eggs full of palladium, you might invent the word "rube" to designate the red cubes, and another "blegg", to designate the blue eggs. Both words are useful because they "carve reality at the joints" - they refer to two completely separate classes of things which it's practically useful to keep in separate categories. Calling something a "blegg" is a quick and easy way to describe its color, shape, opacity, texture, and chemical composition. It may be that the odd blegg might be purple rather than blue, but in general the characteristics of a blegg remain sufficiently correlated that "blegg" is a useful word. If they weren't so correlated - if blue objects were equally likely to be palladium-containing-cubes as vanadium-containing-eggs, then the word "blegg" would be a waste of breath; the characteristics of the object would remain just as mysterious to your partner after you said "blegg" as they were before.

"Disease", like "blegg", suggests that certain characteristics always come together. A rough sketch of some of the characteristics we expect in a disease might include:

1. Something caused by the sorts of thing you study in biology: proteins, bacteria, ions, viruses, genes.
2. Something involuntary and completely immune to the operations of free will
3. Something rare; the vast majority of people don't have it
4. Something unpleasant; when you have it, you want to get rid of it
5. Something discrete; a graph would show two widely separate populations, one with the disease and one without, and not a normal distribution.
6. Something commonly treated with science-y interventions like chemicals and radiation.

Cancer satisfies every one of these criteria, and so we have no qualms whatsoever about classifying it as a disease. It's a type specimen, the sparrow as opposed to the ostrich. The same is true of heart attack, the flu, diabetes, and many more.

Some conditions satisfy a few of the criteria, but not others. Dwarfism seems to fail (5), and it might get its status as a disease only after studies show that the supposed dwarf falls way out of normal human height variation. Despite the best efforts of transhumanists, it's hard to convince people that aging is a disease, partly because it fails (3). Calling homosexuality a disease is a poor choice for many reasons, but one of them is certainly (4): it's not necessarily unpleasant.

The marginal conditions mentioned above are also in this category. Obesity arguably sort-of-satisfies criteria (1), (4), and (6), but it would be pretty hard to make a case for (2), (3), and (5).

So, is obesity really a disease? Well, is Pluto really a planet? Once we state that obesity satisfies some of the criteria but not others, it is meaningless to talk about an additional fact of whether it "really deserves to be a disease" or not.

If it weren't for those pesky hidden inferences...

Hidden Inferences From Disease Concept

The state of the disease node, meaningless in itself, is used to predict several other nodes with non-empirical content. In English: we make value decisions based on whether we call something a "disease" or not.

If something is a real disease, the patient deserves our sympathy and support; for example, cancer sufferers must universally be described as "brave". If it is not a real disease, people are more likely to get our condemnation; for example Sandy's husband who calls her a "pig" for her inability to control her eating habits. The difference between "shyness" and "social anxiety disorder" is that people with the first get called "weird" and told to man up, and people with the second get special privileges and the sympathy of those around them.

And if something is a real disease, it is socially acceptable (maybe even mandated) to seek medical treatment for it. If it's not a disease, medical treatment gets derided as a "quick fix" or an "abdication of personal responsibility". I have talked to several doctors who are uncomfortable suggesting gastric bypass surgery, even in people for whom it is medically indicated, because they believe it is morally wrong to turn to medicine to solve a character issue.

                   Graph of concept of "disease"

While a condition's status as a "real disease" ought to be meaningless as a "hanging node" after the status of all other nodes have been determined, it has acquired political and philosophical implications because of its role in determining whether patients receive sympathy and whether they are permitted to seek medical treatment.

If we can determine whether a person should get sympathy, and whether they should be allowed to seek medical treatment, independently of the central node "disease" or of the criteria that feed into it, we will have successfully unasked the question "are these marginal conditions real diseases" and cleared up the confusion.

Sympathy or Condemnation?

Our attitudes toward people with marginal conditions mainly reflect a deontologist libertarian (libertarian as in "free will", not as in "against government") model of blame. In this concept, people make decisions using their free will, a spiritual entity operating free from biology or circumstance. People who make good decisions are intrinsically good people and deserve good treatment; people who make bad decisions are intrinsically bad people and deserve bad treatment. But people who make bad decisions for reasons that are outside of their free will may not be intrinsically bad people, and may therefore be absolved from deserving bad treatment. For example, if a normally peaceful person has a brain tumor that affects areas involved in fear and aggression, they go on a crazy killing spree, and then they have their brain tumor removed and become a peaceful person again, many people would be willing to accept that the killing spree does not reflect negatively on them or open them up to deserving bad treatment, since it had biological and not spiritual causes.

Under this model, deciding whether a condition is biological or spiritual becomes very important, and the rationale for worrying over whether something "is a real disease" or not is plain to see. Without figuring out this extremely difficult question, we are at risk of either blaming people for things they don't deserve, or else letting them off the hook when they commit a sin, both of which, to libertarian deontologists, would be terrible things. But determining whether marginal conditions like depression have a spiritual or biological cause is difficult, and no one knows how to do it reliably.

Determinist consequentialists can do better. We believe it's biology all the way down. Separating spiritual from biological illnesses is impossible and unnecessary. Every condition, from brain tumors to poor taste in music, is "biological" insofar as it is encoded in things like cells and proteins and follows laws based on their structure.

But determinists don't just ignore the very important differences between brain tumors and poor taste in music. Some biological phenomena, like poor taste in music, are encoded in such a way that they are extremely vulnerable to what we can call social influences: praise, condemnation, introspection, and the like. Other biological phenomena, like brain tumors, are completely immune to such influences. This allows us to develop a more useful model of blame.

The consequentialist model of blame is very different from the deontological model. Because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. Consequentialists don't on a primary level want anyone to be treated badly, full stop; thus is it written: "Saddam Hussein doesn't deserve so much as a stubbed toe." But if consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences. Hurting bank robbers may not be a good in and of itself, but it will prevent banks from being robbed in the future. And, one might infer, although alcoholics may not deserve condemnation, societal condemnation of alcoholics makes alcoholism a less attractive option.

So here, at last, is a rule for which diseases we offer sympathy, and which we offer condemnation: if giving condemnation instead of sympathy decreases the incidence of the disease enough to be worth the hurt feelings, condemn; otherwise, sympathize. Though the rule is based on philosophy that the majority of the human race would disavow, it leads to intuitively correct consequences. Yelling at a cancer patient, shouting "How dare you allow your cells to divide in an uncontrolled manner like this; is that the way your mother raised you??!" will probably make the patient feel pretty awful, but it's not going to cure the cancer. Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness. The cancer is a biological condition immune to social influences; the laziness is a biological condition susceptible to social influences, so we try to socially influence the laziness and not the cancer.

The question "Do the obese deserve our sympathy or our condemnation," then, is asking whether condemnation is such a useful treatment for obesity that its utility outweights the disutility of hurting obese people's feelings. This question may have different answers depending on the particular obese person involved, the particular person doing the condemning, and the availability of other methods for treating the obesity, which brings us to...

The Ethics of Treating Marginal Conditions

If a condition is susceptible to social intervention, but an effective biological therapy for it also exists, is it okay for people to use the biological therapy instead of figuring out a social solution? My gut answer is "Of course, why wouldn't it be?", but apparently lots of people find this controversial for some reason.

In a libertarian deontological system, throwing biological solutions at spiritual problems might be disrespectful or dehumanizing, or a band-aid that doesn't affect the deeper problem. To someone who believes it's biology all the way down, this is much less of a concern.

Others complain that the existence of an easy medical solution prevents people from learning personal responsibility. But here we see the status-quo bias at work, and so can apply a preference reversal test. If people really believe learning personal responsibility is more important than being not addicted to heroin, we would expect these people to support deliberately addicting schoolchildren to heroin so they can develop personal responsibility by coming off of it. Anyone who disagrees with this somewhat shocking proposal must believe, on some level, that having people who are not addicted to heroin is more important than having people develop whatever measure of personal responsibility comes from kicking their heroin habit the old-fashioned way.

But the most convincing explanation I have read for why so many people are opposed to medical solutions for social conditions is a signaling explanation by Robin Hans...wait! no!...by Katja Grace. On her blog, she says:

...the situation reminds me of a pattern in similar cases I have noticed before. It goes like this. Some people make personal sacrifices, supposedly toward solving problems that don’t threaten them personally. They sort recycling, buy free range eggs, buy fair trade, campaign for wealth redistribution etc. Their actions are seen as virtuous. They see those who don’t join them as uncaring and immoral. A more efficient solution to the problem is suggested. It does not require personal sacrifice. People who have not previously sacrificed support it. Those who have previously sacrificed object on grounds that it is an excuse for people to get out of making the sacrifice. The supposed instrumental action, as the visible sign of caring, has become virtuous in its own right. Solving the problem effectively is an attack on the moral people.

A case in which some people eat less enjoyable foods and exercise hard to avoid becoming obese, and then campaign against a pill that makes avoiding obesity easy demonstrates some of the same principles.

There are several very reasonable objections to treating any condition with drugs, whether it be a classical disease like cancer or a marginal condition like alcoholism. The drugs can have side effects. They can be expensive. They can build dependence. They may later be found to be placebos whose efficacy was overhyped by dishonest pharmaceutical advertising.. They may raise ethical issues with children, the mentally incapacitated, and other people who cannot decide for themselves whether or not to take them. But these issues do not magically become more dangerous in conditions typically regarded as "character flaws" rather than "diseases", and the same good-enough solutions that work for cancer or heart disease will work for alcoholism and other such conditions (but see here).

I see no reason why people who want effective treatment for a condition should be denied it or stigmatized for seeking it, whether it is traditionally considered "medical" or not.

Summary

People commonly debate whether social and mental conditions are real diseases. This masquerades as a medical question, but its implications are mainly social and ethical. We use the concept of disease to decide who gets sympathy, who gets blame, and who gets treatment.

Instead of continuing the fruitless "disease" argument, we should address these questions directly. Taking a determinist consequentialist position allows us to do so more effectively. We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition, and we should allow patients to seek treatment whenever it is available and effective.

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Yvain:

The consequentialist model of blame is very different from the deontological model. Because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. [...] But if consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences. Hurting bank robbers may not be a good in and of itself, but it will prevent banks from being robbed in the future.

Or as Oliver Wendell Holmes put it more poignantly:

If I were having a philosophical talk with a man I was going to have hanged or electrocuted, I should say, "I don't doubt that your act was inevitable for you, but to make it more avoidable by others we propose to sacrifice you to the common good. You may regard yourself as a soldier dying for your country if you like. But the law must keep its promises."

(I am not a consequentialist, much less a big fan of Holmes, but he sure had a way with words.)

Here's a perfect illustration: Halfbakery discusses the idea of a drug for alleviating unrequited love. Many people speak out against the idea, eloquently defending the status quo for no particular reason other than it's the status quo. I must be a consequentialist, because I'd love to have such a drug available to everyone.

Thanks for the link-- very entertaining discussion.

I don't think anyone came out explicitly with the idea that unrequited love works well in some people's lives and badly in others, and people would have their own judgement about whether to take a drug for it.

Instead, at least the anti-drug contingent reacted as though the existence of the drug meant that unrequited love would go away completely.

For another example, see The End of My Addiction, a book by a cardiologist who became an alcoholic and eventually found that Baclofen, a muscle relaxant, eliminated the craving and also caused him to quit being a shopoholic. He's been trying to get a study funded to see whether there's solid evidence that high doses of the drug undo addictions, but there isn't sufficient interest. It isn't just that the drug is off patent, it's that most people don't see alcohol craving as a problem in itself.

He's been trying to get a study funded to see whether there's solid evidence that high doses of the drug undo addictions, but there isn't sufficient interest.

There are a few randomized trials of baclofen, if those count:

  • Addolorato et al. 2006. 18 drinkers got baclofen, 19 got diazepam (the 'gold standard' treatment, apparently). Baclofen performed about as well as diazepam.

  • Addolorato et al. 2007.61814-5) 42 drinkers got baclofen, 42 got a placebo. More baclofen patients remained abstinent than placebo patients, and the baclofen takers stayed abstinent longer (both results were statistically significant).

  • Assadi et al. 2003. 20 opiate addicts got baclofen, 20 got a placebo. (Statistically) significantly more of the baclofen patients stayed on the treatment, and lessened depressive & withdrawal symptoms. The baclofen patients also did insignificantly better on 'opioid craving and self-reported opioid and alcohol use.'

  • Shoptaw et al. 2003. 35 cokeheads got baclofen, 35 a placebo. 'Univariate analyses of aggregates of urine drug screening showed generally favorable outcomes for baclofen, but not at statistically significant levels. There was no statistical significance observed for retention, cocaine craving, or incidence of reported adverse events by treatment condition.'

  • Heinzerling et al. 2006. Just found this one: 25 meth addicts got baclofen, 26 got gabapentin, and 37 got a placebo. Going by the abstract, across the whole sample, neither baclofen nor gabapentin beat the placebo, but an after-the-fact statistical analysis suggested that baclofen had a significantly stronger effect than placebo among the patients who were stricter about taking the baclofen.

  • Franklin et al. 2009. Editing in this one too: 30 smokers who were thinking of quitting took baclofen, 30 took a placebo. Both groups smoked progressively fewer cigarettes a day during the trial, but the baclofen users had a significantly steeper decline than the placebo users. However, they did not report significantly less craving feelings.

  • Kahn et al. 2009. Last one, I promise: 80 cocaine addicts from around the USA got baclofen and 80 got a placebo. There were no statistically significant differences in treatment retention, cocaine use, measures of craving and withdrawal, or any of the other things the researchers tested for, except on a couple of post hoc tests. The researchers hint that the dose used (60mg) might have been too small.

Most of these studies are a few years old now, and there are also case reports, uncontrolled trials like this one and studies done on rodents. I'm kind of surprised no one's tried doing a larger scale trial of baclofen for alcohol. I haven't looked at these in detail - maybe the effect is only statistically significant and not clinically significant, or there's some subtle methodological issue I'm missing.

(Edited this comment a few times because Chrome helpfully posted it prematurely for me.)

Thanks for looking this up.

Unless I've missed something, only the third study might have used baclofen in high enough dosages to test Arneisen's hypothesis.

From his FAQ:

Q How much baclofen does a patient need?

A It varies from patient to patient, depending probably on physical size, extent of dependency, and other factors. Studies have shown that animals lose all motivation to consume addictive substances when they are given baclofen in the range of 1 to 5 milligrams per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of body weight.

The evidence from my case and other patients is that the threshold dose needed to break the cycle of addictive craving, preoccupation, and obsessive thoughts is higher than the maintenance dose needed to keep a patient completely free from addiction.

Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness.

That depends a lot on whether or not the reason they're not working is because they already feel they're worthless... in which case the result isn't likely to be an improvement.

Someone once quipped about a Haskell library that "You know it's a good library when just reading the manual removes the problem it solves from your life forever." I feel the same way about this article. That's a compliment, in case you were wondering.

The one criticism I would make is that it's long, and I think you could spread this to other sites and enlighten a lot of people if you wrote an abridged version and perhaps illustrated it with silly pictures of cats.

Thank you very much. That's exactly the feeling I hoped people would have if this dissolved the question and it's great to hear.

I can't think of how to make this shorter without removing content (especially since this is already pitched at an advanced audience - anything short of LW and I'd have to explain status quo biases, preference reversal tests, and actually justify determinism).

I can, however, give you an lolcat if you want one.

This is a really interesting post and I will most likely respond on my own blog sometime. In the meantime, I haven't read the whole comment thread, but I don't think this article has been linked yet (I did search for the title): http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magazine/10psyche-t.html?pagewanted=all

It's called "The Americanization of Mental Illness". Definitely worth a read; in particular, here is an excellent quotation:

It turns out that those who adopted biomedical/genetic beliefs about mental disorders were the same people who wanted less contact with the mentally ill and thought of them as more dangerous and unpredictable. This unfortunate relationship has popped up in numerous studies around the world. In a study conducted in Turkey, for example, those who labeled schizophrenic behavior as akil hastaligi (illness of the brain or reasoning abilities) were more inclined to assert that schizophrenics were aggressive and should not live freely in the community than those who saw the disorder as ruhsal hastagi (a disorder of the spiritual or inner self). Another study, which looked at populations in Germany, Russia and Mongolia, found that “irrespective of place . . . endorsing biological factors as the cause of schizophrenia was associated with a greater desire for social distance.”

Even as we have congratulated ourselves for becoming more “benevolent and supportive” of the mentally ill, we have steadily backed away from the sufferers themselves. It appears, in short, that the impact of our worldwide antistigma campaign may have been the exact opposite of what we intended.

Others complain that the existence of an easy medical solution prevents people from learning personal responsibility. But here we see the status-quo bias at work, and so can apply a preference reversal test. If people really believe learning personal responsibility is more important than being not addicted to heroin, we would expect these people to support deliberately addicting schoolchildren to heroin so they can develop personal responsibility by coming off of it. Anyone who disagrees with this somewhat shocking proposal must believe, on some level, that having people who are not addicted to heroin is more important than having people develop whatever measure of personal responsibility comes from kicking their heroin habit the old-fashioned way.

Now that's a good use of the reversal test!

I remember being in a similar argument myself. I was talking with someone about how I had (long ago!) deliberately started smoking to see if quitting would be hard [1], and I found that, though there were periods where I'd had cravings, it wasn't hard to distract myself, and eventually they went away and I was able to easily quit.

The other person (who was not a smoker and so probably didn't take anything personally) said, "Well, sure, in that case it's easy to quit smoking, because you went in with the intent to prove it's easy to quit. Anyone would find it easy to stay away from cigarettes in that case!"

So I said, "Then shouldn't that be the anti-smoking tactic that schools use? Make all students take up smoking, just to prove they can quit. Then, everyone will grow up with the ability to quit smoking without much effort."

[1] and many, many people have told me this is insane, so no need to remind me

I met someone who started smoking for the same reason you did once and is still addicted, so you couldn't have been at that much of an advantage.

I am torn between telling you you're insane and suggesting you take up crack on a sort of least convenient possible world principle.

"But the most convincing explanation I have read for why so many people are opposed to medical solutions for social conditions is a signaling explanation by Robin Hans...wait! no!...by Katja Grace."

Yeah! The hell with that Robin Hanson guy! He's nothing but a signaller trying to signal that he's better than signalling by talking about signals!

I am so TOTALLY not like that.

;)

Great article, by the way; I just can't resist metahumour though.

I recently wrote a blog article arguing that 95% of psychology and psychiatry is snake-oil and pseudoscience; primarily I was directing my ire at the incoherency of much of it, but I had the implicit premise of dismissing the types of 'conditions' you wrote about as pathologizing the mundane.

While on the one hand, I object to much of classifying these conditions as such - if the government ever manages to mindprobe me I know they'll classify me as an alcoholic paranoid with schizoid tendencies (something that I see nothing wrong with), you present a powerful argument of "Hey, if it works, what's wrong with that?" (The day they invent a workout pill, is the day I stop going for bloody stupid jogs.)

I'd wager that most people here are contrarian thinkers to some degree - that they're distrustful of over-diagnosis, over-medication, etc - but I'd also guess that your stance is something most of us do agree with, and it's important to segregate the "Psychology isn't founded upon empirical data" argument from the "Brain Pills violate the nobility of the human condition" argument.

I plan to amend my blog post with your excellent distillation.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but

There are several very reasonable objections to treating any condition with drugs, whether it be a classical disease like cancer or a marginal condition like alcoholism. The drugs can have side effects. They can be expensive. They can build dependence. They may later be found to be placebos whose efficacy was overhyped by dishonest pharmaceutical advertising.. They may raise ethical issues with children, the mentally incapacitated, and other people who cannot decide for themselves whether or not to take them. But these issues do not magically become more dangerous in conditions typically regarded as "character flaws" rather than "diseases", and the same good-enough solutions that work for cancer or heart disease will work for alcoholism and other such conditions.

seems to summarise to:

(1) Medical treatments (drugs, surgery, et cetera) for conditions that can be treated in other ways can have negative consequences. (2) But so do those for conditions without other treatments and we use those. (3) Therefore: we should not object to these treatments on the grounds of risks.

I'd question the validity of this argument. Consider a scenario where there are two treatments for a condition: A and B. A has lower risks than B. Where is the flaw in the following argument:

(1) Treating the condition with B has risks. (2) But the treatments used for other conditions have similar risks. (3) Therefore: we should not object to B on the grounds of risks.

The problem with the argument is that it draws a false analogy between this condition (where there is a lower and higher risk treatment) and others where the only treatment is of similar risk to the high risk treatment for this condition.

I'm not saying the people with conditions like obesity shouldn't get medical treatment: there are compelling advantages to it, such as the decreased amount of effort involved and faster progress... But I think that this argument isn't valid.

If I understand you right, you're saying that allowing drugs might discourage people from even trying the willpower-based treatments, which provides a cost of allowing drugs that isn't present in diseases without a willpower-based option.

It's a good point and I'm adding it to the article.

Sort-of nitpick:

The consequentialist model of blame is very different from the deontological model. Because all actions are biologically determined, none are more or less metaphysically blameworthy than others, and none can mark anyone with the metaphysical status of "bad person" and make them "deserve" bad treatment. Consequentialists don't on a primary level want anyone to be treated badly, full stop; thus is it written: "Saddam Hussein doesn't deserve so much as a stubbed toe." But if consequentialists don't believe in punishment for its own sake, they do believe in punishment for the sake of, well, consequences.

I would say "utilitarians" rather than "consequentialists" here; while both terms are vague, consequentialism is generally more about the structure of your values, and there's no structural reason a consequentialist (/ determinist) couldn't consider it desirable for blameworthy people to be punished. (Or, with regard to preventative imprisonment of innocents, undesirable for innocents to be punished, over and above the undesirability of the harm that the punishment constitutes.)

I installed a mental filter that does a find and replace from "utilitarian" to "consequentialist" every time I use it outside very technical discussion, simply because the sort of people who don't read Less Wrong already have weird and negative associations with "utilitarian" that I can completely avoid by saying "consequentialist" and usually keep the meaning of whatever I'm saying intact.

Less Wrong does deserve better than me mindlessly applying that filter. But you'd need a pretty convoluted consequentialist system to promote blame (and if you were willing to go that far, you could call a deontologist someone who wants to promote states of the world in which rules are followed and bad people are punished, and therefore a consequentialist at heart). Likewise, you could imagine a preference utilitarian who wants people to be punished just because e or a sufficient number of other people prefer it. I'm not sufficiently convinced enough to edit the article, though I'll try to be more careful about those terms in the future.

We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition, and we should allow patients to seek treatment whenever it is available and effective.

I think you said it better earlier when you talked about whether the reduction in incidence outweighs the pain caused by the tactic. For some conditions, if it wasn't for the stigma there would be little-to-nothing unpleasant about it (and we wouldn't need to talk about reducing incidence).

I agree with your general principle, but think it's unlikely that blame and stigma are ever the most useful methods. We should be careful to avoid the false dichotomy between the "stop eating like a pig" tactic and fat acceptance.

Sandy's husband is an asshole, who probably defends his asshole behavior by rationalizing that he's trying to help her. He's not really trying to help her (or if he is, he knows little about psychology (or women)).

Blame and judgment are such strong signaling devices that I think people rarely use it for the benefit of the one being judged. If it happens to be the best tactic for dealing with the problem, well, that would be a quite a coincidence.

--

I liked your post a lot, in case that wasn't clear. I think you are focusing on the right kinds of questions.

Very good article. One thing I'd like to see covered are conditions that are "treatable" with good lifestyle choices, but whose burden is so onerous that no one would consider them acceptable. Let's say you have a genetic condition which causes you to gain much more weight (5x, 10x - the number is up to the reader) than a comparable non-affected person. So much that the only way you can prevent yourself from becoming obese is to strenuously exercise 8 hours a day. If a person chooses not to do this, are they really making a "bad" choice? Is it still their fault? In this scenario, 1/3 of your day/life has become about treating this condition. I doubt too many people would honestly choose to do the "virtuous" thing in this situation.

Second thing I'd like covered: things that were inflicted on you without your consent. How much blame can you take for, let's say, your poor job prospects if your parents beat you severely every day (giving you slight brain damage of some kind, but not enough for it to be casually noticeable), fed you dog food and dirt sandwiches until you were 18, or forced you to live in an area where bullets flew into your room while you slept, forcing you to wake up in terror? There's plenty of evidence for the potentially devastating and permanent effects of trauma, poor childhood nutrition, and stress. Sure, some people manage to live like that and come out of it OK, but can everyone? Is it still right to hold someone so treated /morally/ responsible for doing poorly in their life?

If there's some cure for the genetic condition, naturally I'd support that. Otherwise, I think it would fall under the category of "the cost of the blame is higher than the benefits would be." It's not part of this person's, or my, or society's, or anyone's preferences that this person exercise eight hours a day to keep up ideal weight, so there's no benefit to blaming them until they do.

As for the second example, regarding "is it still right to hold someone so treated /morally/ responsible for doing poorly in their life", this post could be summarized as "there's no such thing as moral responsibility as a primitive object". These people aren't responsible if they're poor, just like a person with a wonderful childhood isn't responsible if they're poor, but if we have evidence that holding them responsible helps them build a better life, we might as well treat them as responsible anyway.

(the difference, I think, is that we have much more incentive to help the person with the terrible childhood, because one could imagine that this person would respond well to help; the person with the great childhood has already had a lot of help and we have no reason to think that giving more will be of any benefit)

I agree on the cause of genetic obesity, but my answer may be different for the case of an extremely impoverished childhood. Part of my response is reflected in the fact that neither I (nor anyone I personally know) grew up in that level of poverty so that in imagining the poverty situation I have to counter-factually modify the world and I'm not sure how to do it.

In one imaginary scenario I would find someone facing facing malnutrition, violently abusive parents, mental retardation, in an environment with no effective police services in the actual world and imagine myself helping them from a distance as a stranger. This is basically "how to help the comprehensively poor as an external intervention". There are a lot of people like this on the planet and helping them is a really hard problem that is not very imaginary at all. I don't think I have any kind of useful answer that fits in this space and meshes with the themes in the OP.

A second imaginary scenario would be that I am also in the same general situation but only slightly better off. Perhaps there is rampant crime and poverty but my parents gave me minimally adequate nutrition and they weren't abusive (yet I magically have the same planning capacities that grow from really having been well fed and then spending decades in personal learning).

In this case there are no substantial resources with which to help and my resources probably will mostly be devoted to my own survival and marginal improvement. However talk is cheap, so I could probably follow some sort of "talk strategy". Within that scope, I would try to avoid a "blaming strategy" because those are generally counter productive. Instead I would probably do my best to help my neighbor engage in mindfully pro-social conscientiousness because that's something that predicts positive life outcomes even assuming low IQ and it hooks you into social processes that generate and distribute positive externalities which are in desperately short supply in this scenario.

I think I might try to find a "large raft" buddhist temple or a christian church that was focused on acts rather than faith... or really basically any philosophically organized pragmatic self help community that implements what Nietzsche might criticize as a "slave morality". Picking the pragmatically best church from among those available would probably be the largest opportunity for a value add by myself (I'd be looking, pretty much, for long term members who started poor but became rich and generous due to the community, its doctrines, and its practices).

In any case, it would be relatively cheap to be part of this community for my own benefit and I could invite the tragic young man along every week as a way of exposing him to useful memes and opportunities to be socially reprocessed into a relatively moral and productive person and perhaps be given a slightly challenging job by someone in the church as an act of partial charity.

On the other hand, imagine that the young man had learned hostility and violence as a life coping strategy (from being surrounded by it). I could be subject to this violence. If I had body guards, or a mech suit, or a magic ring, I might still be able to safely help him without exposing myself to costs larger than the benefits I was trying to bring into his life... but in that case I could probably do more good for other people and in the meantime we were stipulating general poverty, so I wouldn't have any "self protecting wealth" in the first place.

Thus if his personality was so broken that he was dangerous to try to help, and I was so poor that I couldn't change contexts to avoid him, I'd probably follow just enough of a "social blaming" strategy to drive him away from me and recruit allies in protection if case he starts engaging in predatory rent-seeking as a survival strategy. If he tried to do this to me, and I didn't have enough allies to drive him off, and he didn't have too many allies to seek revenge, I might kill him as a way of avoiding victimization for myself and others (prison would lead to less aggregate harm, but its way more expensive). Hopefully I would be able to do that without malice or making excuses or otherwise damage to my ability to see the world clearly. Perhaps I could self-medicate with a "talking cure" like apologizing to his dead body or "confessing my sins" to a priest and maybe trying to do something good for his mother as an act of contrition?

In practice, for most of the evolutionary history of humanity, it appears that a substantial portion of the female population has been in precisely the nightmare scenario I've ignored so far where there are basically no options. For much of evolutionary history a substantial fraction of women were a variation of chattel slave called a "wife", held in bondage by an "abused and abusive" man who grew up in enormous material poverty but had the strong loyalty of his male relatives, with alliances to other slave holding groups of men, where the women lacked the ability to leave or to find any kind of better context. Remembering this helps me understand why early libertarians and early radical feminists were in such strong agreement. It also helps to explain why people seem evolved to get such pleasure from blaming common enemies (and are biased towards being systematically insane when it comes to sex differences and romantic relationships).

Talking about this kind of stuff can be really gut churning and I imagine it triggers all kinds of (currently) obsolete instincts in a way that the abstractions of meta-morality do not... but to not talk about it seems likely to ignore some pretty major causal factors when it comes to understanding and debugging human craziness in our present state of enormous wealth.

Great post.

We should blame and stigmatize people for conditions where blame and stigma are the most useful methods for curing or preventing the condition, and we should allow patients to seek treatment whenever it is available and effective.

I think that this rule contains the sub-rule "condemn conditions such that people are aware of the actions that lead to them" almost all the time, because our condemnation cannot possibly create positive externalities otherwise. It's similar to how jails represent no deterrence if you don't know what action gets you in jail.

Other thoughts:

  • What is condemned and not condemned should change over time as people acquire information. Maybe several years from now there'll be a positive payoff to condemning people who don't take vitamin D. In the long run, all conditions caused great part by personal choice should be condemned and only victims of meteor impacts and vacuum metastability events should be sympathized with.

  • The chance that a certain condition is actually fully independent from socially pressurized personal decision making has to be considered. For example, if the vast majority of people are genetically immune to a disease we think is triggered by certain personal actions, then our condemnation would merely hurt the diseased people and generate no positive externalities.

You're homing in on the one fuzzy spot in this essay that jumped out at me, but I don't think you're addressing it head on because you (as well as Yvain) seem to be assuming that there are, in point of fact, many situations where condemnation and lack of sympathy will have net positive outcomes.

Yvain wrote:

Yelling at a cancer patient, shouting "How dare you allow your cells to divide in an uncontrolled manner like this; is that the way your mother raised you??!" will probably make the patient feel pretty awful, but it's not going to cure the cancer. Telling a lazy person "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," very well might cure the laziness. The cancer is a biological condition immune to social influences; the laziness is a biological condition susceptible to social influences, so we try to socially influence the laziness and not the cancer.

It seems to me that there are a minuscule number of circumstances where yelling insults that fall afoul of the fundamental attribution error is going to have positive consequences taking everything into account.

  1. In general, people do things that are logical reactions to their environments, given their limited time and neurons for observation and analysis. In asserting that someone has a character flaw as the basis for their behavior, you're ignoring external factors (which are probably much more amenable to change) that might make the behavior locally rational. Instead of saying "Get up and do some work, you worthless bum," you might end up saying "Good job at finding a situation where you can survive and be reasonably happy with almost no personal effort! You're clearly very clever! I wonder however, if you've considered what is likely to happen when your cushy niche evaporates (when the relevant banks of personal good will or institutional slack have been fully exploited) and you have to support yourself like most other people - while you've learned very few useful skills in the meantime?"

  2. Supposing they don't have a character flaw but are falsely convinced by your harangue that they have one, the logical thing to do is probably (1) to give up on fixing it but then (2) find contexts where the hypothetical character flaw isn't seriously debilitating. Character flaws can require serious work to fix - like years of self-debugging. Generally it seems cheaper to just find something you're "naturally good at" instead of struggling in an area that you're "naturally bad at".

  3. In many cases, character flaws are caused precisely by people internalizing such critiques, avoiding situations where they could learn to practice better behaviors, and so their skillset and world model become stunted in that area. To top it off they feel guilty about this, and tend to be defensive and incapable of reacting to opportunities to fix it with the joyous enthusiasm that might seem more rational. Your insults thus have the ability to cause the thing you claim to be trying to fix when you engage in socially coercive manipulation tactics.

  4. The human brain mostly implements rationality as a method to detect flaws in the arguments of enemies, and criticism automatically puts people on the defensive. If you criticize someone with insufficient practice at rationality they're likely confabulate arguments against your criticism and dig themselves in deeper.

  5. To the degree that they really do have a character flaw, its probably associated with a rather large number of ugh fields that are more likely to get bigger if you get judgmental with them. Taking a "bad cop" approach with them is going to get obedience while you're around, but what you'd ideally like to do is expedite their personal debugging process, which works much better when you actively try to help them. This, however, requires real effort which means you can't just "cheap out" and accuse them of a personal flaw whose repair might require you to spend some time listening, sympathizing, brainstorming, researching, and generally being a skilled and effective life coach. In the absence of the skills, time, or financial resources to provide such support, some people resort to accusations of fault - not realizing that it implies something unflattering about their own material and intellectual poverty.

My impression is that Sandy's sister was probably trying to implement a relatively cheap, effective, and non-coercive "cure" for Sandy's obesity in line with nearly all of Yvain's discussion of solutions that involve "talk vs drugs" except taking note of the fact that blame and lack of sympathy are pretty much the worst variation on a talk solution, from a practical perspective of helping people actually succeed.

Just as violence is the last refuge of political incompetence, so is blame the last refuge of psychological incompetence.

Sandy's sister was starting from the place Yvain's article left off - having dissolved the kind of shallow disagreement between the men, she had probably moved into her personal toolbox for actually helping her sister process an emotionally complex situation that was likely to pose serious problems in finding and executing the right strategy in the face of hostile epistemic influences and possible akrasia if she started feeling really guilty for enjoying food and carrying a few extra pounds. Politicizing the issues and "blaming society" isn't without costs or failure modes, but it can help with some people get out of "guilt mode" and start using their brain.

Note that Sandy's sister started with a examination of the personal choices available to Sandy, the information sources available to her, and the incentives and goals of the people offering the various theories. I assume that after Sandy got into an emotionally safe context to talk about her issues, there's a chance she would decide to do something in her power to change course and decrease her weight. Or she might decide that she actually was perfectly fine in her current state. (In practice, being a little bit "over weight" may actually be optimal thing in terms of life expectancy.)

(One thing to mention is that unless Sandy's husband is good at other parts of the relationship that Yvain didn't mention, I would guess that they are headed for a divorce within 7 years.)

In some contexts, for some "diseases", some people might be "beyond saving" as a tragic fact of who they are, what flaws they have, the aggregate/average wealth of the community, the sanity waterline of the community, and one's pre-existing personal loyalties within the community. Mostly what I'm trying to express is that blame tactics are mostly only relevant when no one can afford to actually help but they want to try something while absolving themselves from needing to do any more. In the meantime, the tactic is probably going to lower the average sanity of the community just that little bit more for the person being blamed, the person doing the blaming, and everyone around them who will be epistemically influenced by their post-blame mental states.

It seems to me that there are a minuscule number of circumstances where yelling insults that fall afoul of the fundamental attribution error is going to have positive consequences taking everything into account.

I got the impression from OP that the "condemned condition vs. disease" dichotomy primarily manifests itself as society's general attitudes, a categorization that determines people's modes of reasoning about a condition. I think the Sandy example was exaggerated for the purpose of illustration and Yvain probably does not advocate yelling insults in real life.

If someone is already in a a woeful condition it is unlikely that harsh treatment does any good, for all the reasons you wonderfully wrapped up. But nonetheless an alcoholic has to expect a great deal of silent and implied condemnation and a greatly altered disposition towards him from society - a predictable deterrence. Another very important factor is the makeup of the memepool about alcoholism. If the notion that drinking leads to "wrecking one's life" and "losing human dignity" thoroughly permeates society, an alcoholic candidate may be more likely to attempt overcoming their addiction or seeking help.

The OP only presented a model that tells us what factors could make condemnation net positive. The personal negative effects were actually presented as something to be weighed together with social positive effects; you expanded on the personal effects side of the equation.

UPDATE: After some further thinking I have to say that "just be nice to everyone" is better than Yvain's model, in real life. There are just too many possible failure modes. You have to be simultaneously right about

  • Whether the condition is good or bad (I'm using Eliezer's framework of morality). Today's condemned condition might be tomorrow's valued condition.

  • Whether there are any relevant actions that cause the condition at all. It's been a prevalent idea that personal actions and/or peer pressure causes homosexuality, which idea caused great harm (even if homosexuality really was a moral wrong, if we knew its cause was independent from personal actions we wouldn't ideally condemn homosexuals).

  • What actions really cause the condition. Currently the majority of people are utterly wrong about what causes obesity and what cures it. You condemn obese people, expect them to do some actions in order to loose weight, so the obese person proceeds to do those actions, only to find out they don't work, which makes them internalize their "character flaw'" and makes you condemn them even more, because "they just haven't the willpower".

And besides all of this, you have to correctly weigh positives (which are enormously difficult to estimate) against negatives (which are enormously difficult to estimate, as we've seen in JenniferRM's great comment).