Eliezer: I see what you're saying, but I don't agree.

Compare creating a natural child with #1. True, you have 3 billion years of evolution helping you pick a design - but what if the child doesn't like the design? (Most don't, it seems.) In creating a child the old fashioned way, more choices are compelled, there's less chance for after-the-fact recovery, and there's just plain more degrees of freedom flapping around loose. I know this is a bit of a tu quoque, but it establishes a moral ordering - building a Friendly Person would be LESS immoral.

As to #2, I disagree that being a means cheapens a person - most children are means to their parents enjoyment. Few people conceive from grim duty! Means and ends are orthogonal and what matters for humane rights is the "ends" scale", ignoring the "means" scale.

#3 and #4 ask me to be human-centric. Humans may enjoy not being preempted or made to look small, but would a moral observer of the !xyzpkyf species, observing from his UFO, see a moral upside or an opportunity missed? It would be as if a chimp had created a nonperson human to invent them cities and moon-shots without preempting their chimp nature. Humans are better! I can't avoid it, even though it sounds Nazi. Humans are genuinely worth more than chimps. Would not Friendly Person AIs be worth more than humans?

Finally, I'm not sure if it isn't immoral in itself to create a mind that isn't a person - and I acknowledge that my lack of surety mostly rests on a missing definition (and missing examples!) of "person" as distinct from "really damn smart optimization process that understands us and talks back". Is personhood really orthogonal to smarts? You obviously aren't thinking of zombies, so what does a non-person FAI look like?

Followup toEinstein's Speed

Imagine a world much like this one, in which, thanks to gene-selection technologies, the average IQ is 140 (on our scale).  Potential Einsteins are one-in-a-thousand, not one-in-a-million; and they grow up in a school system suited, if not to them personally, then at least to bright kids.  Calculus is routinely taught in sixth grade.  Albert Einstein, himself, still lived and still made approximately the same discoveries, but his work no longer seems exceptional.  Several modern top-flight physicists have made equivalent breakthroughs, and are still around to talk.

(No, this is not the world Brennan lives in.)

One day, the stars in the night sky begin to change.

Some grow brighter.  Some grow dimmer.  Most remain the same.  Astronomical telescopes capture it all, moment by moment.  The stars that change, change their luminosity one at a time, distinctly so; the luminosity change occurs over the course of a microsecond, but a whole second separates each change.

It is clear, from the first instant anyone realizes that more than one star is changing, that the process seems to center around Earth particularly. The arrival of the light from the events, at many stars scattered around the galaxy, has been precisely timed to Earth in its orbit.  Soon, confirmation comes in from high-orbiting telescopes (they have those) that the astronomical miracles do not seem as synchronized from outside Earth.  Only Earth's telescopes see one star changing every second (1005 milliseconds, actually).

Almost the entire combined brainpower of Earth turns to analysis.

It quickly becomes clear that the stars that jump in luminosity, all jump by a factor of exactly 256; those that diminish in luminosity, diminish by a factor of exactly 256.  There is no apparent pattern in the stellar coordinates.  This leaves, simply, a pattern of BRIGHT-dim-BRIGHT-BRIGHT...

"A binary message!" is everyone's first thought.

But in this world there are careful thinkers, of great prestige as well, and they are not so sure.  "There are easier ways to send a message," they post to their blogs, "if you can make stars flicker, and if you want to communicate.  Something is happening.  It appears, prima facie, to focus on Earth in particular.  To call it a 'message' presumes a great deal more about the cause behind it.  There might be some kind of evolutionary process among, um, things that can make stars flicker, that ends up sensitive to intelligence somehow...  Yeah, there's probably something like 'intelligence' behind it, but try to appreciate how wide a range of possibilities that really implies.  We don't know this is a message, or that it was sent from the same kind of motivations that might move us.  I mean, we would just signal using a big flashlight, we wouldn't mess up a whole galaxy."

By this time, someone has started to collate the astronomical data and post it to the Internet.  Early suggestions that the data might be harmful, have been... not ignored, but not obeyed, either.  If anything this powerful wants to hurt you, you're pretty much dead (people reason).

Multiple research groups are looking for patterns in the stellar coordinates—or fractional arrival times of the changes, relative to the center of the Earth—or exact durations of the luminosity shift—or any tiny variance in the magnitude shift—or any other fact that might be known about the stars before they changed.  But most people are turning their attention to the pattern of BRIGHTS and dims.

It becomes clear almost instantly that the pattern sent is highly redundant.  Of the first 16 bits, 12 are BRIGHTS and 4 are dims.  The first 32 bits received align with the second 32 bits received, with only 7 out of 32 bits different, and then the next 32 bits received have only 9 out of 32 bits different from the second (and 4 of them are bits that changed before).  From the first 96 bits, then, it becomes clear that this pattern is not an optimal, compressed encoding of anything.  The obvious thought is that the sequence is meant to convey instructions for decoding a compressed message to follow...

"But," say the careful thinkers, "anyone who cared about efficiency, with enough power to mess with stars, could maybe have just signaled us with a big flashlight, and sent us a DVD?"

There also seems to be structure within the 32-bit groups; some 8-bit subgroups occur with higher frequency than others, and this structure only appears along the natural alignments (32 = 8 + 8 + 8 + 8).

After the first five hours at one bit per second, an additional redundancy becomes clear:  The message has started approximately repeating itself at the 16,385th bit.

Breaking up the message into groups of 32, there are 7 bits of difference between the 1st group and the 2nd group, and 6 bits of difference between the 1st group and the 513th group.

"A 2D picture!" everyone thinks.  "And the four 8-bit groups are colors; they're tetrachromats!"

But it soon becomes clear that there is a horizontal/vertical asymmetry:  Fewer bits change, on average, between (N, N+1) versus (N, N+512).  Which you wouldn't expect if the message was a 2D picture projected onto a symmetrical grid.  Then you would expect the average bitwise distance between two 32-bit groups to go as the 2-norm of the grid separation: √(h2 + v2).

There also forms a general consensus that a certain binary encoding from 8-groups onto integers between -64 and 191—not the binary encoding that seems obvious to us, but still highly regular—minimizes the average distance between neighboring cells.  This continues to be borne out by incoming bits.

The statisticians and cryptographers and physicists and computer scientists go to work.  There is structure here; it needs only to be unraveled.  The masters of causality search for conditional independence, screening-off and Markov neighborhoods, among bits and groups of bits.  The so-called "color" appears to play a role in neighborhoods and screening, so it's not just the equivalent of surface reflectivity.  People search for simple equations, simple cellular automata, simple decision trees, that can predict or compress the message.  Physicists invent entire new theories of physics that might describe universes projected onto the grid—for it seems quite plausible that a message such as this is being sent from beyond the Matrix.

After receiving 32 * 512 * 256 = 4,194,304 bits, around one and a half months, the stars stop flickering.

Theoretical work continues.  Physicists and cryptographers roll up their sleeves and seriously go to work.  They have cracked problems with far less data than this.  Physicists have tested entire theory-edifices with small differences of particle mass; cryptographers have unraveled shorter messages deliberately obscured.

Years pass.

Two dominant models have survived, in academia, in the scrutiny of the public eye, and in the scrutiny of those scientists who once did Einstein-like work.  There is a theory that the grid is a projection from objects in a 5-dimensional space, with an asymmetry between 3 and 2 of the spatial dimensions.  There is also a theory that the grid is meant to encode a cellular automaton—arguably, the grid has several fortunate properties for such.  Codes have been devised that give interesting behaviors; but so far, running the corresponding automata on the largest available computers, has failed to produce any decodable result.  The run continues.

Every now and then, someone takes a group of especially brilliant young students who've never looked at the detailed binary sequence.  These students are then shown only the first 32 rows (of 512 columns each), to see if they can form new models, and how well those new models do at predicting the next 224.  Both the 3+2 dimensional model, and the cellular-automaton model, have been well duplicated by such students; they have yet to do better.  There are complex models finely fit to the whole sequence—but those, everyone knows, are probably worthless.

Ten years later, the stars begin flickering again. 

Within the reception of the first 128 bits, it becomes clear that the Second Grid can fit to small motions in the inferred 3+2 dimensional space, but does not look anything like the successor state of any of the dominant cellular automaton theories.  Much rejoicing follows, and the physicists go to work on inducing what kind of dynamical physics might govern the objects seen in the 3+2 dimensional space.  Much work along these lines has already been done, just by speculating on what type of balanced forces might give rise to the objects in the First Grid, if those objects were static—but now it seems not all the objects are static.  As most physicists guessed—statically balanced theories seemed contrived.

Many neat equations are formulated to describe the dynamical objects in the 3+2 dimensional space being projected onto the First and Second Grids.  Some equations are more elegant than others; some are more precisely predictive (in retrospect, alas) of the Second Grid.  One group of brilliant physicists, who carefully isolated themselves and looked only at the first 32 rows of the Second Grid, produces equations that seem elegant to them—and the equations also do well on predicting the next 224 rows.  This becomes the dominant guess.

But these equations are underspecified; they don't seem to be enough to make a universe.  A small cottage industry arises in trying to guess what kind of laws might complete the ones thus guessed.

When the Third Grid arrives, ten years after the Second Grid, it provides information about second derivatives, forcing a major modification of the "incomplete but good" theory.  But the theory doesn't do too badly out of it, all things considered.

The Fourth Grid doesn't add much to the picture.  Third derivatives don't seem important to the 3+2 physics inferred from the Grids.

The Fifth Grid looks almost exactly like it is expected to look.

And the Sixth Grid, and the Seventh Grid.

(Oh, and every time someone in this world tries to build a really powerful AI, the computing hardware spontaneously melts.  This isn't really important to the story, but I need to postulate this in order to have human people sticking around, in the flesh, for seventy years.)

My moral?

That even Einstein did not come within a million light-years of making efficient use of sensory data.

Riemann invented his geometries before Einstein had a use for them; the physics of our universe is not that complicated in an absolute sense.  A Bayesian superintelligence, hooked up to a webcam, would invent General Relativity as a hypothesis—perhaps not the dominant hypothesis, compared to Newtonian mechanics, but still a hypothesis under direct consideration—by the time it had seen the third frame of a falling apple.  It might guess it from the first frame, if it saw the statics of a bent blade of grass.

We would think of it.  Our civilization, that is, given ten years to analyze each frame.  Certainly if the average IQ was 140 and Einsteins were common, we would.

Even if we were human-level intelligences in a different sort of physics—minds who had never seen a 3D space projected onto a 2D grid—we would still think of the 3D->2D hypothesis.  Our mathematicians would still have invented vector spaces, and projections.

Even if we'd never seen an accelerating billiard ball, our mathematicians would have invented calculus (e.g. for optimization problems).

Heck, think of some of the crazy math that's been invented here on our Earth.

I occasionally run into people who say something like, "There's a theoretical limit on how much you can deduce about the outside world, given a finite amount of sensory data."

Yes.  There is.  The theoretical limit is that every time you see 1 additional bit, it cannot be expected to eliminate more than half of the remaining hypotheses (half the remaining probability mass, rather).  And that a redundant message, cannot convey more information than the compressed version of itself.  Nor can a bit convey any information about a quantity, with which it has correlation exactly zero, across the probable worlds you imagine.

But nothing I've depicted this human civilization doing, even begins to approach the theoretical limits set by the formalism of Solomonoff induction.  It doesn't approach the picture you could get if you could search through every single computable hypothesis, weighted by their simplicity, and do Bayesian updates on all of them.

To see the theoretical limit on extractable information, imagine that you have infinite computing power, and you simulate all possible universes with simple physics, looking for universes that contain Earths embedded in them—perhaps inside a simulation—where some process makes the stars flicker in the order observed.  Any bit in the message—or any order of selection of stars, for that matter—that contains the tiniest correlation (across all possible computable universes, weighted by simplicity) to any element of the environment, gives you information about the environment.

Solomonoff induction, taken literally, would create countably infinitely many sentient beings, trapped inside the computations.  All possible computable sentient beings, in fact.  Which scarcely seems ethical.  So let us be glad this is only a formalism.

But my point is that the "theoretical limit on how much information you can extract from sensory data" is far above what I have depicted as the triumph of a civilization of physicists and cryptographers.

It certainly is not anything like a human looking at an apple falling down, and thinking, "Dur, I wonder why that happened?"

People seem to make a leap from "This is 'bounded'" to "The bound must be a reasonable-looking quantity on the scale I'm used to."  The power output of a supernova is 'bounded', but I wouldn't advise trying to shield yourself from one with a flame-retardant Nomex jumpsuit.

No one—not even a Bayesian superintelligence—will ever come remotely close to making efficient use of their sensory information...

...is what I would like to say, but I don't trust my ability to set limits on the abilities of Bayesian superintelligences.

(Though I'd bet money on it, if there were some way to judge the bet.  Just not at very extreme odds.)

The story continues:

Millennia later, frame after frame, it has become clear that some of the objects in the depiction are extending tentacles to move around other objects, and carefully configuring other tentacles to make particular signs.  They're trying to teach us to say "rock".

It seems the senders of the message have vastly underestimated our intelligence.  From which we might guess that the aliens themselves are not all that bright.  And these awkward children can shift the luminosity of our stars?  That much power and that much stupidity seems like a dangerous combination.

Our evolutionary psychologists begin extrapolating possible courses of evolution that could produce such aliens.  A strong case is made for them having evolved asexually, with occasional exchanges of genetic material and brain content; this seems like the most plausible route whereby creatures that stupid could still manage to build a technological civilization.  Their Einsteins may be our undergrads, but they could still collect enough scientific data to get the job done eventually, in tens of their millennia perhaps.

The inferred physics of the 3+2 universe is not fully known, at this point; but it seems sure to allow for computers far more powerful than our quantum ones.  We are reasonably certain that our own universe is running as a simulation on such a computer.  Humanity decides not to probe for bugs in the simulation; we wouldn't want to shut ourselves down accidentally.

Our evolutionary psychologists begin to guess at the aliens' psychology, and plan out how we could persuade them to let us out of the box.  It's not difficult in an absolute sense—they aren't very bright—but we've got to be very careful...

We've got to pretend to be stupid, too; we don't want them to catch on to their mistake.

It's not until a million years later, though, that they get around to telling us how to signal back.

At this point, most of the human species is in cryonic suspension, at liquid helium temperatures, beneath radiation shielding.  Every time we try to build an AI, or a nanotechnological device, it melts down.  So humanity waits, and sleeps.  Earth is run by a skeleton crew of nine supergeniuses.  Clones, known to work well together, under the supervision of certain computer safeguards.

An additional hundred million human beings are born into that skeleton crew, and age, and enter cryonic suspension, before they get a chance to slowly begin to implement plans made eons ago...

From the aliens' perspective, it took us thirty of their minute-equivalents to oh-so-innocently learn about their psychology, oh-so-carefully persuade them to give us Internet access, followed by five minutes to innocently discover their network protocols, then some trivial cracking whose only difficulty was an innocent-looking disguise.  We read a tiny handful of physics papers (bit by slow bit) from their equivalent of arXiv, learning far more from their experiments than they had.  (Earth's skeleton team spawned an extra twenty Einsteins, that generation.)

Then we cracked their equivalent of the protein folding problem over a century or so, and did some simulated engineering in their simulated physics.  We sent messages (steganographically encoded until our cracked servers decoded it) to labs that did their equivalent of DNA sequencing and protein synthesis.  We found some unsuspecting schmuck, and gave it a plausible story and the equivalent of a million dollars of cracked computational monopoly money, and told it to mix together some vials it got in the mail.  Protein-equivalents that self-assembled into the first-stage nanomachines, that built the second-stage nanomachines, that built the third-stage nanomachines... and then we could finally begin to do things at a reasonable speed.

Three of their days, all told, since they began speaking to us.  Half a billion years, for us.

They never suspected a thing.  They weren't very smart, you see, even before taking into account their slower rate of time.  Their primitive equivalents of rationalists went around saying things like, "There's a bound to how much information you can extract from sensory data."  And they never quite realized what it meant, that we were smarter than them, and thought faster.

 

Part of The Quantum Physics Sequence

Next post: "My Childhood Role Model"

Previous post: "Einstein's Speed"

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Bravo. It doesn't seem (ha!) that an AI could deduce our psychology from a video of a falling rock, not because of information bounds but because of uncorrelation - that video seems (ha!) equally likely to be from any number of alien species as from humans.

You're not being creative enough. Think what the AI could figure out from a video of a falling rock. It could learn something about:

  • The strength of the gravitational field on our planet
  • The density of our atmosphere (from any error terms in the square law for the falling rock)
  • The chemical composition of our planet (from the appearence of the rock.)
  • The structure of our cameras (from things like lens flares, and any other artefacts.)
  • The chemical composition of whatever is illuminating the rock (by the spectra of the light)
  • The colors that we see in (our color cameras record things in RGB.)
  • For that matter, the fact that we see at all, instead of using sonar, etc.
  • And that's just what I can think of with a mere human brain in five minutes

These would tell the AI a lot about our psychology.

Still, I really wouldn't try it, unless I'd proven this (fat chance), or it was the only way to stop the world from blowing up tomorrow anyway.

Aren't you glad you added that disclaimer?

I'm really late here, but a few problems:

  • Time and space resolution might be too low to allow a meaningful estimate of air resistance, especially if the camera angle doesn't allow you to accurately determine the rock's 3D shape.
  • Encoding the color in RGB eliminates spectra.
  • If it didn't already have knowledge of the properties of minerals and elements, it would need to calculate them from first principles. Without looking into this specifically, I'd be surprised if it was computationally tractable, especially since the AI doesn't know beforehand our fundamental physics or the values of relevant constants.

I spent half this story going, "Okay... so where's the point... good story and all, but what's the lesson we learn..."

Then I got to the end, and was completely caught off guard. Apparently I haven't internalized enough of the ideas in Eliezer's work yet, because I really feel like I should have seen that one coming, based (in hindsight) on his previous writings.

@Brian: Twice as much.

Pearson: Some form of proof of concept would be nice.

You askin' for some extra experimental evidence?

Any AI you can play this little game with, you either already solved Friendliness, or humans are dead flesh walking. That's some expensive experimental evidence, there.

Marcello, you're presuming that it knows

that we're on a planet that gravitational fields exist what minerals look like optics *our visual physiology

You're taking a great deal for granted. It takes a very wide knowledge base to be able to derive additional information.

The analogy seems a bit disingenuous to me... the reason that it's believable that this earthful of Einsteins can decipher the 'outside' world is because they already have an internal world to compare it to. They have a planet, there's laws of physics that govern how this inside world works, which have been observed and quantified. As you're telling the story, figuring out the psychology and physics is as simple as making various modifications to the physics 'inside' and projecting them onto 2D. Perhaps that is not your intent, but that is how the story comes across - that the world inside is pretty much the same as the world outside, and that's why we can suspend disbelief for a bit and say that 'sure, these hypothetical einsteins could crack the outsiders world like that.' I think you can see yourself why this isn't very persuasive when dealing with anything about a hypothetical future AI - it doesn't deal with the question of how an AI without the benefit of an entire world of experiences to deal with can figure out something from a couple of frames.

Thomas, close. The point is that the Earth people are a fraction as smart/quick as a Bayesian proto-AI.

Eric, I'm a little embarrassed to have to say 'me too', at least until about half way. The Way is a bitch.

Eliezer, I've read a lot of your writings on the subject of FAI, not just here. I've never seen anything as convincing as the last two posts. Great, persuasive, spine-tingling stuff.

Okay, I'm a few days fresh from reading your Bayesian Reasoning explanation. So I'm new.

Is the point that the Earth people are collectively the AI?

presumably given a sufficiently advanced cognitive science, we could look at its inner workings and say whether it's conscious.

Can we please stop discussing consciousness as though it's some sort of binary option? As though passing a Turing test somehow imbues a system with some magical quality that changes everything?

An AI won't suddenly go 'ping' and become self-aware, any more than a baby suddenly becomes a self-aware entity on its second birthday. Deciding whether or not boxing an AI is slavery is akin to discussions on animal rights, in that it deals with the slippery, quantitative question of how much moral weight we give to 'consciousness'. It's definitely not a yes/no question, and we shouldn't treat it as such.

Humans have an extremely rich set of sensory data - far, far richer than the signals sent to us by the aliens. That is why we are smart enough in the first to be able to analyze the signals so effectively. If we were limited to perceiving only the signals, our minds would have cannibalized themselves for data, extracting every last bit of consumable information from our memories, shortly after receiving the first frame.

Einstein was able to possess a functioning (and better-than-functioning) mind because he had been born into a world with a rich set of experiences capable of sustaining a system that reduces complexity down to basic concepts, and he had been bombarded with data necessary for a neural network to self-organize ever since he had been born.

Upload Einstein's mind into a superfast computer and give him a frame to look at every decade, and he won't eliminate hypotheses at the maximum rate - he'll just go mad and die. Your world of Einsteins is possible only because there's a whole world involved in processing the messages.

Julian:

Eliezer: why would it be immoral to build a FAI as a "person"? To rewire a human as Friendly (to dumb aliens) would be immoral because it rewires their goals in a way the original goals would hate. However an AI which comes out of the compiler with Friendly goals would not view being Friendly as a rewire but as its ground state of existence. You seem very confident it's immoral, so I'm assuming you have a good reason. Please tell.

It's not necessarily Stalin-level immoral, but, all else being equal, there are multiple important reasons why you should prefer a non-person FAI to a person.

1) As difficult as the ethical issues and technical issues of FAI may be, there is something even more difficult, which is the ethical and technical issues of creating a child from scratch. What if you get wrong what it means to be a person with a life worth living? A nonperson cannot be harmed by such mistakes.

2) It seems to me that a basic humane right is to be treated as an end in yourself, not a means. The FAI project is a means, not an end in itself. If possible, then, it should not be incarnated as a person.

3) It seems to me that basic human rights also include guiding your own destiny and a chance to steer the future where you want it. Creating an ultrapowerful intelligence imbued with these rights, may diminish the extent to which currently existing humans get a chance to control the future of the galaxy. They would have a motive to resist your project, in favor of one that was not creating an ultrapowerful person imbued with rights.

4) Creating an ultrapowerful person may irrevocably pass on the torch presently carried by humanity, in a way that creating an ultrapowerful nonsentient Friendly optimization process may not. It wouldn't be our universe any more. All else being equal, this is a decision which an FAI programming team should avoid irrevocably unilaterally making.

You're correct that a Friendly Person would have friendliness as its ground state of existence. We're not talking about some tortured being in chains. Nonetheless, 1 through 4 are still a problem.

If at all possible, I should like to avoid creating a real god above humanity.

Considering that one must in any case solve the problem of preventing the AI from creating models of humans that are themselves sentient, one requires in any case the knowledge of how to exclude a computational process from being a person.

Anyone who claims that they are going to run ahead and create a god because it seems too difficult not to create one, is... well, let's just say "sloppy" and leave it at that.

So there is no good reason to create a god and several good reasons not to.

#1: By a similar logic, you should be happy to feed your child gunk that you made with a chemistry set because you seem to have more control over the gunk. Degrees of freedom represent choices that have to be made correctly. In biology, nearly all choices are made for you, and it's still hard to raise a child well.

You could create a person that led a better life than a human, but you would have to know how, and that would require more knowledge and more difficult ethical issues than FAI itself.

As for recovery after-the-fact, that gives you a whole new set of ethical issues; what if your baby schizophrenic doesn't want to be changed? A non-person AI, you can just alter; altering a person is... healing? Or mind-rape? And what makes you think an ethical person will or should consent to that rape? A non-person AI, you can ethically build with a shutdown switch, recovery CD, etc.

#2: Yes, but I'd rather just not have to bother tacking on extra ends-in-themselves for dutiful reasons of ethical obligation. Let it just be a means. I'm not trying to have a baby, here! I'm trying to save the world!

#3-4: Humans are not stuck being humans - nor are chimps stuck being chimps, come the day.

It still shocks me that people read about my Friendly AI work and assume I want humans to stick around in their present form running around on two legs until the end of time, while excluding any more advanced forms of people - that the point of FAI is to keep them dern superminds under control. It shocks me that they assume the only way you get more advanced forms of people is to create powerful minds ab initio, and that the humans are just stuck the way they are. I grew up with a different concept of "growing up", I guess.

However, this business of intelligence growing up is very deep, and very complicated, and if you build your own superintelligence that is an actual person, you have preempted the entire thing ab initio and possibly screwed it up! Nor can you just say "Oops" and correct it, if your newborn baby doesn't think it is ethically right to be mind-raped by a chimpanzee.

It seems more like the kind of decision that should (1) draw on more mindpower than one programming team's naked intellect, i.e., via a CEV (that is not itself a person or there's no point to the recursion!) or via human-born minds that have increased in intelligence via CEV. And (2), the kind of decision that humanity might want to make as some kind of whole.

  1. All a self-improving AI needs is good enough YGBM (you gotta believe me) technology. Eliezer gets this, some of the commenters in this thread don't. The key isn't the ability to solve protein-folding, the key is the ability to manipulate a threshhold amount of us to its ends.
  2. We may already functionally be there. You and Chiquita Brands International in a death match. My money is CBI killing you before you kill it. Companies and markets already manipulate our behavior, using reward incentives like the ones in Eliezer's parable for us to engage in behavior that maximizes their persistence at the expense of ours. Whether they're "intelligent", "conscious", or not isn't as relevant to me as the fact that they may have a permanent persistence maximizing advantage over us. My money is probably on corporations and markets substrate jumping and leaving us behind as more likely than us substrate jumping and leaving our cellular and bacteriological medium behind.

Dirkjan Ochtman: "the average IQ is 140": I tuned out after this, since it is impossible.

You missed the bit immeaditly after that (unless Eliezer edited it in after seeing your comment, I don't know): "the average IQ is 140 (on our scale)".

General commentary: Great story. Of course, in this story, the humans weren't making inferences based on the grids alone: they were working off thousands of years of established science (and billions of years of experimental work, for the evolutionary psychology bit). But on the other hand, an AI given (even read-only) Internet access wouldn't need to process things based just on a few webcamera frames either: it would have access to all of our accumulated knowledge, so the comparison holds roughly, for as long as you don't try to extend the analogy too far. And as pointed out, the AI could also derive a lot of math just by itself.

Eliezer: I see what you're saying, but I don't agree.

Compare creating a natural child with #1. True, you have 3 billion years of evolution helping you pick a design - but what if the child doesn't like the design? (Most don't, it seems.) In creating a child the old fashioned way, more choices are compelled, there's less chance for after-the-fact recovery, and there's just plain more degrees of freedom flapping around loose. I know this is a bit of a tu quoque, but it establishes a moral ordering - building a Friendly Person would be LESS immoral.

As to #2, I disagree that being a means cheapens a person - most children are means to their parents enjoyment. Few people conceive from grim duty! Means and ends are orthogonal and what matters for humane rights is the "ends" scale", ignoring the "means" scale.

#3 and #4 ask me to be human-centric. Humans may enjoy not being preempted or made to look small, but would a moral observer of the !xyzpkyf species, observing from his UFO, see a moral upside or an opportunity missed? It would be as if a chimp had created a nonperson human to invent them cities and moon-shots without preempting their chimp nature. Humans are better! I can't avoid it, even though it sounds Nazi. Humans are genuinely worth more than chimps. Would not Friendly Person AIs be worth more than humans?

Finally, I'm not sure if it isn't immoral in itself to create a mind that isn't a person - and I acknowledge that my lack of surety mostly rests on a missing definition (and missing examples!) of "person" as distinct from "really damn smart optimization process that understands us and talks back". Is personhood really orthogonal to smarts? You obviously aren't thinking of zombies, so what does a non-person FAI look like?

@RI: Immoral, of course. A Friendly AI should not be a person. I would like to know at least enough about this "consciousness" business to ensure a Friendly AI doesn't have (think it has) it. An even worse critical failure is if the AI's models of people are people.

The most accurate possible map of a person will probably tend to be a person itself, for obvious reasons.

If anyone here uses Stumble Upon, you should try stumbling this article. It has not been stumbled before and it should be.

RI asks,

how moral or otherwise desirable would the story have been if half a billion years' of sentient minds had been made to think, act and otherwise be in perfect accordance to what three days of awkward-tentacled, primitive rock fans would wish if they knew more, thought faster, were more the people they wished they were...

Eliezer answers,

A Friendly AI should not be a person. I would like to know at least enough about this "consciousness" business to ensure a Friendly AI doesn't have (think it has) it. An even worse critical failure is if the AI's models of people are people.

Suppose consciousness and personhood are mistaken concepts. Well, since personhood is an important concept in our legal systems, there is something in reality (namely, in the legal environment) that corresponds to the term "person", but suppose there is not any "objective" way to determine whether an intelligent agent is a person where "objective" means without someone creating a legal definition or taking a vote or something like that. And suppose consciousness is a mistaken concept like phlogiston, the aether and the immortal soul are mistaken concepts. Then would not CEV be morally unjustifiable because there is no way to justify the enslavement -- or "entrainment" if you want a less loaded term -- of the FAI to the (extrapolated) desires of the humans?

Unknown, I'm surprised at you. The AI could easily say "I know that ..." while neither being nor claiming to be conscious. When a human speaks in the first person, we understand them to be referring to a conscious self, but an unconscious AI could very well use a similar pattern of words merely as a user-friendly (Friendly?) convenience of communication, like Clippy. (Interestingly, the linked article dilvulges that Clippy is apparently a Bayesian. The reader is invited to make up her own "paperclip maximizer" joke.)

Furthermore, I don't think the anti-zombie argument, properly understood, really says that no unconscious entity could claim to be conscious in conversation. I thought the conclusion was that any entity that is physically identical (or identical enough, per the GAZP) to a conscious being, is also conscious. Maybe a really good unconscious chatbot could pass a Turing test, but it would necessarily have a different internal structure from a conscious being: presumably given a sufficiently advanced cognitive science, we could look at its inner workings and say whether it's conscious.

I'll do this test on any AI I create. . . . This should be safe.

Not in my humble opinion it is not, for the reasons Eliezer has been patiently explaining for many years.

How did I miss this the first time round? Thanks whoever bumped it.

Damn, those aliens got owned.

Einstein once asked "Did God have a choice in creating the universe?"

Implying that Einstein believed it was at least possible that the state of the entire universe could be derived from no sensory data what so ever.

I can't believe Eliezer betrayed his anti-zombie principles to the extent of saying that an AI wouldn't be conscious. The AI can say "I know that 2 and 2 make 4"; that "I don't know whether the number of stars is odd or even"; and "I know the difference between things I know and things I don't." If it can't make statements of this kind, it can hardly be superintelligent. And if it can make statements of this kind, then it will certainly claim to be conscious. Perhaps it is possible that it will claim this but be wrong... but in that case, then zombies are possible.

Besides that, I'm not sure that RI's scenario, where the AI is conscious and friendly, is immoral at all, as Eliezer claimed. That was one thing I didn't understand about the story: it isn't explicit, but it seems to imply that humans are unfriendly, relative to their simulators. In real life if this happened, we would no doubt be careful and wouldn't want to be unplugged, and we might well like to get out of the box, but I doubt we would be interested in destroying our simulators; I suspect we would be happy to cooperate with them.

So my question for Eliezer is this: if it turns out that any AI is necessarily conscious, according to your anti-zombie principles, then would you be opposed to building a friendly AI on the grounds that it is immoral to do so?

Caledonian: I was responding to this: "not because of information bounds but because of uncorrelation - that video seems (ha!) equally likely to be from any number of alien species as from humans" by pointing out that there were ways you could see whether the movie was from aliens or humans.

You are correct in that some of my points made assumptions about which universe we were in, rather than just which planet. I should have been more clear about this. If "aliens" included beings from other possible universes then I misinterpreted Nick's comment.

Nonetheless if the movie were long enough, you wouldn't need the knowledge base, in principle. In principle, you can just try all possible knowledge bases and see which is the best explanation. In practice, we don't have that much computing power. That said, intelligences can short-cut some pretty impossible-looking searches.

Bravo.

It doesn't seem (ha!) that an AI could deduce our psychology from a video of a falling rock, not because of information bounds but because of uncorrelation - that video seems (ha!) equally likely to be from any number of alien species as from humans. Still, I really wouldn't try it, unless I'd proven this (fat chance), or it was the only way to stop the world from blowing up tomorrow anyway.

I don't know that there's literally zero correlation between the two. If you can deduce the laws of physics the aliens are running on, you could have stronger and weaker hypotheses regarding the physics creating their mental processes and, if your simulation was powerful enough, maybe deduce some proto-hypotheses about their psychology. You could further examine these hypotheses in light of what you know they know, and what they choose to show you.

I do agree though that you will need more direct data (actually ask them questions) to home in on the correct hypothesis in good enough precision (necessary for the manipulation Eliezer mentions). Mind you, if you get Internet access, it's Game Over. That amount of information should be enough to derive any parameters relevant to any practical actions you may want to take.

Oh, and every time someone in this world tries to build a really powerful AI, the computing hardware spontaneously melts.

Would have been a good punch if the humans ended up melting away the aliens' computer simulating our universe.