In reply to:

So a couple points:

First, I'm reluctant to use Less Wrong posters as a primary data set because Less Wrong posters are far from neurotypical. A lot of hypotheses about autism involve... wait for it... amygdala abnormality.

Second, I think it is very rare for people to change their behavior when they adopt a new normative theory. Note that all the more powerful arguments in normative theory involve thought experiments designed to evoke an emotional response. People usually adopt a normative theory because it does a good job explaining the emotional intuitions they already possess.

Third, a realist account of changing moral beliefs is really metaphysically strange. Does anyone think we should be updating P(utilitarianism) based on evidence we gather? What would that evidence look like? If an anti-realist metaphysics gives us a natural account of what is really happening when we think we're responding to moral arguments then shouldn't anti-realism be the most plausible candidate?

A lot of hypotheses about autism involve... wait for it... amygdala abnormality.

Autism gets way over-emphasized here and elsewhere as a catch-all diagnosis for mental oddity. Schizotypality and obsessive-compulsive spectrum conditions are just as common near the far right of the rationalist ability curve. (Both of those are also associated with lots of pertinent abnormalities of the insula, anterior cingulate cortex, dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, et cetera. However I've found that fMRI studies tend to be relatively meaningless and shouldn't be taken too seriously; it's not uncommon for them to contradict each other despite high claimed confidence.)

I'm someone who "talks (or reads) myself into" new moral positions pretty regularly and thus could possibly be considered an interesting case study. I got an fMRI done recently and can probably persuade the researchers to give me a summary of their subsequent analysis. My brain registered absolutely no visible change during the two hours of various tasks I did while in the fMRI (though you could see my eyes moving around so it was clearly working); the guy sounded somewhat surprised at this but said that things would show up once the data gets sent to the lab for analysis. I wonder if that's common. (At the time I thought, "maybe that's because I always feel like I'm being subjected to annoying trivial tests of my ability to jump through pointless hoops" but besides sounding cool that's probably not accurate.) Anyway, point is, I don't yet know what they found.

(I'm not sure I'll ever be able to substantiate the following claim except by some day citing people who agree with me, 'cuz it's an awkward subject politically, but: I think the evidence clearly shows that strong aneurotypicality is necessary but not sufficient for being a strong rationalist. The more off-kilter your mind is the more likely you are to just be crazy, but the more likely you are to be a top tier rationalist, up to the point where the numbers get rarer than one per billion. There are only so many OCD-schizotypal IQ>160 folk. I didn't state that at all clearly but you get the gist, maybe.)

A Sketch of an Anti-Realist Metaethics

Below is a sketch of a moral anti-realist position based on the map-territory distinction, Hume and studies of psychopaths. Hopefully it is productive.

The Map is Not the Territory Reviewed

Consider the founding metaphor of Less Wrong: the map-territory distinction. Beliefs are to reality as maps are to territory. As the wiki says:

Since our predictions don't always come true, we need different words to describe the thingy that generates our predictions and the thingy that generates our experimental results. The first thingy is called "belief", the second thingy "reality".

Of course the map is not the territory.

Here is Albert Einstein making much the same analogy:

Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world. In our endeavor to understand reality we are somewhat like a man trying to understand the mechanism of a closed watch. He sees the face and the moving hands, even hears its ticking, but he has no way of opening the case. If he is ingenious he may form some picture of a mechanism which could be responsible for all the things he observes, but he may never be quite sure his picture is the only one which could explain his observations. He will never be able to compare his picture with the real mechanism and cannot even imagine the possibility or the meaning of such a comparison. But he certainly believes that, as his knowledge increases, his picture of reality will become simpler and simpler and will explain a wider and wider range of his sensuous impressions. He may also believe in the existence of the ideal limit of knowledge and that it is approached by the human mind. He may call this ideal limit the objective truth.

The above notions about beliefs involve pictorial analogs, but we can also imagine other ways the same information could be contained. If the ideal map is turned into a series of sentences we can define a 'fact' as any sentence in the ideal map (IM). The moral realist position can then be stated as follows:

Moral Realism: ∃x(x ⊂ IM) & (x = M)

In English: there is some set of sentences x such that all the sentences are part of the ideal map and x provides a complete account of morality.

Moral anti-realism simply negates the above.  ¬(∃x(x ⊂ IM) & (x = M)).

Now it might seem that, as long as our concept of morality doesn't require the existence of entities like non-natural gods, which don't appear to figure into an ideal map, moral realism must be true (where else but the territory could morality be?). The problem of ethics then, is chiefly one of finding a satisfactory reduction of moral language into sentences we are confident of finding in the IM. Moreover, the 'folk' meta-ethics certainly seems to be a realist one. People routinely use moral predicates and speak of having moral beliefs. "Stealing that money was wrong", "I believe abortion is immoral", "Hitler was a bad person". In other words, in the maps people *actually have right now*  a moral code seems to exist.

 


 

Beliefs vs. Preferences

But we don't think talking about belief networks is sufficient for modeling an agent's behavior. To predict what other agents will do we need to know both their beliefs and their preferences (or call them goals, desires, affect or utility function). And when we're making our own choices we don't think we're responding merely to beliefs about the external world. Rather, it seems like we're also responding to an internal algorithm that helps us decide between actions according to various criteria, many of which reference the external world.

The distinction between belief function and utility function shouldn't be new to anyone here. I bring it up because the queer thing about moral statements is that they seem to be self-motivating. They're not merely descriptive, they're prescriptive. So we have a good reason to think that they call our utility function. One way of phrasing a moral non-cognitivist position is to say that moral statements are properly thought of as expressions of an individual's utility function rather than sentences describing the world.

Note that 'expressions of an individual's utility function' is not the same as 'sentences describing an individual's utility function'. The latter is something like 'I prefer chocolate to vanilla' the former is something like 'Mmmm chocolate!'. It's how the utility function feels from the inside. And the way a utility function feels from the inside appears to be, or at least involve, emotion.


Projectivism and Psychopathy

That our brains might routinely turn expressions of our utility function into properties of the external world shouldn't be surprising. This was essentially Hume's position. From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Projectivism is best thought of as a causal account of moral experience. Consider a straightforward, observation-based moral judgment: Jane sees two youths hurting a cat and thinks “That is impermissible.” The causal story begins with a real event in the world: two youth performing actions, a suffering cat, etc. Then there is Jane's sensory perception of this event (she sees the youths, hears the cat's howls, etc.). Jane may form certain inferential beliefs concerning, say, the youths' intentions, the cats' pain, etc. All this prompts in Jane an emotion: She disapproves (say). She then “projects” this emotion onto her experience of the world, which results in her judging the action to be impermissible. In David Hume's words: “taste [as opposed to reason] has a productive faculty, and gilding and staining all natural objects with the colours, borrowed from internal sentiment, raises in a manner a new creation” (Hume [1751] 1983: 88). Here, impermissibility is the “new creation.” This is not to say that Jane “sees” the action to instantiate impermissibility in the same way as she sees the cat to instantiate brownness; but she judges the world to contain a certain quality, and her doing so is not the product of her tracking a real feature of the world, but is, rather, prompted by an emotional experience.

This account has a surface plausibility. Moreover, it has substantial support in psychological literature. In particular, the behavior of psychopaths closely matches what we would expect if the projectivist thesis were true. The distinctive neurobiological feature of psychopathy is impaired function of the amygdala. The amygdala mainly associated with emotional processing and memory. Obviously, as a group psychopaths tend toward moral deficiency. But more importantly psychopaths fail to make the normal human distinction between morality and convention. Thus a plausible account of a moral judgment is that it requires both social convention and emotional reaction. See the work of Shaun Nichols, in particular this for an extended discussion of the implications of psychopathy on metaethics and his book for a broader, empirically informed account of sentimentalist morality. Auditory learners might benefit from this bloggingheads he did.

If the projectivist account is right the difference between non-cognitivism and error theory is essentially one of emphasis. If you want to call moral judgments beliefs based on the above account then you are an error theorist. If you think they're a kind of pseudo-belief then you're a non-cognitivist.


But utility functions are part of the territory described by the map!

Modeling reality has a recursive element which tends to generate considerable confusion over multiple domains. The issue is that somewhere in any good map of the territory will be a description of the agent doing the mapping. So agents end up with beliefs about what they believe and beliefs about what they desire. Thus, we might think there could be a set of sentences in IM that make up our morality so long as some of those sentences describe our utility function. That is, the motivational aspect of morality can be accounted for by including in the reduction both a) a sentence which describes what conditions are to be preferred to others and b) a statement which says that the agent prefers such conditions. 

The problem is, our morality doesn't seem completely responsive to hypothetical and counter-factual shifts in what our utility function is. That is, *if* I thought causing suffering in others was something I should do and I got good feelings from doing it that  *wouldn't* make causing suffering moral (though Sadist Jack might think it was). In other words, changing one's morality function isn't a way to change what is moral (perhaps this judgment is uncommon, we should test it).

 This does not mean the morality subroutine of your utility function isn't responsive to changes in other parts of the utility function. If you think fulfilling your own non-moral desires is a moral good then which actions are moral will depend on how your non-moral desires change. But hypothetical changes in our morality subroutine don't change our moral judgments about our actions in the hypothetical. This is because when we make moral judgments we *don't* look at our map of the world to find our what our morality says, rather we have an emotional reaction to a set of facts and that emotional reaction generates the moral belief. Below is a diagram that somewhat messily describes what I'm talking about.

 

On the left we have the external world which generates the sensory inputs our agent uses to form beliefs. Those beliefs are then input into the utility function, a subroutine of which is morality. The utility function outputs the action the agent chooses. On the right we have zoomed in on the green Map circle from the left. Here we see that the map includes moral 'beliefs' (note that this isn't an ideal map) which have been projected from the morality subroutine in the utility function. Then we have, also within the Map, the self-representation of the agent which in turn includes her algorithms and mental states. Note that altering morality of the self-representation won't change the output of the morality subroutine of the first level of the model. Of course, in an ideal map the self-representation would match the first level but that doesn't change the causal or phenomenal story of how moral judgments are made.

Observe how easy it is to make category errors if this model is accurate. Since we're projecting our moral subroutine onto our map and we're depicting ourselves in the map it is very easy to think that morality is something we're learning about from the external world (if not from sensory input then from a priori reflection!). Of course, morality is in the external world in a meaningful sense since our brains are in the external world. But learning what is in our brains is not motivating in the way moral judgments are supposed to be. This diagram explains why: the facts about our moral code in our self-representation are not directly connected to our choice circuits which cause us to perform actions. Simply stating what our brains are like will not activate our utility function and so the expressive content of moral language will be left out. This is Hume's is-ought distinction- 'ought' sentences can't be derived from 'is' sentences because ought sentences involve the activation of the utility function at the first level of the diagram, whereas 'is' sentences are exclusively part of the map.

And of course since agents can have different morality functions there are no universally compelling arguments.

The above is the anti-realist position given in terms I think Less Wrong is comfortable with. It has the following things in it's favor: it does not posit any 'queer' moral properties as having objective existence and it fully accounts for the motivating, prescriptive aspect of moral language. It is psychologically sound, albeit simplistic. It is naturalistic while providing an account of why meta-ethics is so confusing to begin with. It explains our naive moral realism and dissolves the difference between the two prominent anti-realist camps.

Comments

sorted by
magical algorithm
Highlighting new comments since Today at 10:04 PM
Select new highlight date
All comments loaded

The post heavily relies on moral internalism without arguing for it. Internalism holds that a necessary connection exists between sincere moral judgment and motivation. As the post says, "moral statements [...] seem to be self-motivating." I've never seen a deeply plausible argument for internalism, and I'm pretty sure it's false. The ability of many psychopaths to use moral language in a normal way, and in some cases to agree that they've done evil and assert that they just don't care, would seem to refute it.

Upvoted for giving a clear statement of an anti-realist view.

As the study I link to in the post points out, even though psychopaths often make accurate moral judgments they don't seem to understand the difference between morality and convention. It seems like they can agree they've done evil and assert that they don't care- but thats because they're using evil to mean "against convention" and not what we mean by it.

You're right that it's a weaker point of the post, though. Didn't really have room or time to say everything.

Just to start: imagine a collection of minds without any moral motivation. How would they learn what is moral? (What we do is closely examine the contours of what we are motivated to do, right?)

Psychopaths, or at least convicted criminals (the likely target of research), may lack the distinction between moral and conventional. But there are brain-damage-induced cases of sociopathy in which individuals can still make that distinction (page 2 of the link). These patients with ventromedial frontal brain damage retain their moral reasoning abilities and beliefs but lose their moral motivation. So, I don't think even the claim that moral judgments necessarily carry some motivational force is true.

@lessdazed: nice point.

Great article, really exciting to read because this:

My working model of how VM cortex is involved in moral belief and motivation is that VM cortex is necessary for acquisition of moral concepts, but not their retention or employment. Damage to VM cortex results in disconnection of the pathway by which cognitive processing of moral propositions normally causes activation of emotional and motivational systems that ultimately lead to action. This model explains why moral reasoning usually results in moral motivation, why damage to VM cortex in early life prevents people from learning moral concepts, and why the connection between moral belief and motivation is contingent and not necessary, and thus why the form of MI I target is false. It also explains why damage to VM cortex fails to impair the moral concepts and beliefs of VM patients who have already acquired moral knowledge.

Is exactly the kind of thing projectionism expects us to find. You need an intact VM cortex to develop moral beliefs in the first place. Once your emotional responses are projected into beliefs about the external world you can loose the emotional response through VM cortex damage but retain the beliefs without the motivation.

I've never seen a deeply plausible argument for internalism

If we all agree that some different moral statements are motivating in different amounts, the burden of proof is on the one who says that a certain amount of motivation is impossible.

E.g. The belief "It would be nice to help a friend by helping carry their couch up the stairs to their apartment" makes me feel mildly inclined to help. The belief "It would be really nice to give the homeless guy who asked for food a sandwich" makes me significantly inclined to help. Why would it be impossible for me to believe "It would be nice to help my friend with his diet when he visits me" and feel nothing at all?

One way of phrasing a moral non-cognitivist position is to say that moral statements are properly thought of as expressions of an individual's utility function rather than sentences describing the world.

Note that 'expressions of an individual's utility function' is not the same as 'sentences describing an individual's utility function'. The latter is something like 'I prefer chocolate to vanilla' the former is something like 'Mmmm chocolate!'. It's how the utility function feels from the inside. And the way a utility function feels from the inside appears to be, or at least involve, emotion.

This seems very plausible, except for the fact that we are able to reflect on our emotions and intuitive moral judgements, and to some extent the results of our conscious moral deliberations can override our emotions/intuitions, or even change how our emotions/intuitions work. This simply can't happen if our emotions are direct expressions of our utility functions, or what they feel like from the inside.

An analogy with Yvain's blue-minimizing robot might help here. Emotions perhaps express the utility function of the "main part" of a human brain, but there's this "side module" that works by its own rules, and can occasionally override/modify the "main part". How to formulate a meta-ethics that applies to the human as a whole still seems puzzling to me.

This seems very plausible, except for the fact that we are able to reflect on our emotions and intuitive moral judgements, and to some extent the results of our conscious moral deliberations can override our emotions/intuitions, or even change how our emotions/intuitions work. This simply can't happen if our emotions are direct expressions of our utility functions, or what they feel like from the inside.

I'm skeptical that moral deliberation actually overrides emotions directly. It seems more likely that it changes the beliefs that are input into the utility function (thought often in a subtle way). Obviously this can lead the expression of different emotions. Second, we should be extremely skeptical when we think we've reasoned from one position to another even when the facts haven't changed. If our morality function just changed for an internal reason, say hormone level, it seems very characteristic of humans to invent a rationalization for the change.

Can you give a particular example of a moral deliberation that you think is a candidate? This seems like it would be easier to discuss on an object level.

Can you give a particular example of a moral deliberation that you think is a candidate?

Take someone who talks (or reads) themselves into utilitarianism or egoism. This seems to have real consequences on their actions, for example:

I had deliberately terminated my donations to charities that seemed closer to "rescuing lost puppies". I had also given up personal volunteering (I figured out {work - earn - donate} before I heard it here.) And now I'm really struggling with akrasia / procrastination / laziness /rebellion / escapism.

Presumably, when that writer "converted" to utilitarianism, the positive emotions of "rescuing lost puppies" or "personally volunteering" did not go away, but he chose to override those emotions. (Or if they did go away, that's a result of converting to utilitarianism, not the cause.)

Second, we should be extremely skeptical when we think we've reasoned from one position to another even when the facts haven't changed. If our morality function just changed for an internal reason, say hormone level, it seems very characteristic of humans to invent a rationalization for the change.

I don't think changes in hormone level could explain "converting" to utilitarianism or egoism, but I do leave open the more general possibility that all moral changes are essentially "internal". If someone could conclusively show that, I think the anti-realist position would be much stronger.

So a couple points:

First, I'm reluctant to use Less Wrong posters as a primary data set because Less Wrong posters are far from neurotypical. A lot of hypotheses about autism involve... wait for it... amygdala abnormality.

Second, I think it is very rare for people to change their behavior when they adopt a new normative theory. Note that all the more powerful arguments in normative theory involve thought experiments designed to evoke an emotional response. People usually adopt a normative theory because it does a good job explaining the emotional intuitions they already possess.

Third, a realist account of changing moral beliefs is really metaphysically strange. Does anyone think we should be updating P(utilitarianism) based on evidence we gather? What would that evidence look like? If an anti-realist metaphysics gives us a natural account of what is really happening when we think we're responding to moral arguments then shouldn't anti-realism be the most plausible candidate?

This part of a previous reply to Richard Chappell seems relevant here also:

suppose the main reason I'm interested in metaethics is that I am trying to answer a question like "Should I terminally value the lives of random strangers?" and I'm not sure what that question means exactly or how I should go about answering it. In this case, is there a reason for me to care much about the pre-theoretic grasp of most people, as opposed to, say, people I think are most likely to be right about morality?

In other words, suppose I think I'm someone who would change my behavior when I adopt a new normative theory. Is your meta-ethical position still relevant to me?

If nothing else, my normative theory could change what I program into an FAI, in case I get the chance to do something like that. What does your metaethics imply for someone in this kind of situation? Should I, for example, not think too much about normative ethics, and when the time comes just program into the FAI whatever I feel like at that time? In case you don't have an answer now, do you think the anti-realist approach will eventually offer an answer?

Third, a realist account of changing moral beliefs is really metaphysically strange.

I think we currently don't have a realist account of changing moral beliefs that is metaphysically not strange. But given that metaphysics is overall still highly confusing and unsettled, I don't think this is a strong argument in favor of anti-realism. For example what is the metaphysics of mathematics, and how does that fit into a realist account of changing mathematical beliefs?

A lot of hypotheses about autism involve... wait for it... amygdala abnormality.

Autism gets way over-emphasized here and elsewhere as a catch-all diagnosis for mental oddity. Schizotypality and obsessive-compulsive spectrum conditions are just as common near the far right of the rationalist ability curve. (Both of those are also associated with lots of pertinent abnormalities of the insula, anterior cingulate cortex, dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, et cetera. However I've found that fMRI studies tend to be relatively meaningless and shouldn't be taken too seriously; it's not uncommon for them to contradict each other despite high claimed confidence.)

I'm someone who "talks (or reads) myself into" new moral positions pretty regularly and thus could possibly be considered an interesting case study. I got an fMRI done recently and can probably persuade the researchers to give me a summary of their subsequent analysis. My brain registered absolutely no visible change during the two hours of various tasks I did while in the fMRI (though you could see my eyes moving around so it was clearly working); the guy sounded somewhat surprised at this but said that things would show up once the data gets sent to the lab for analysis. I wonder if that's common. (At the time I thought, "maybe that's because I always feel like I'm being subjected to annoying trivial tests of my ability to jump through pointless hoops" but besides sounding cool that's probably not accurate.) Anyway, point is, I don't yet know what they found.

(I'm not sure I'll ever be able to substantiate the following claim except by some day citing people who agree with me, 'cuz it's an awkward subject politically, but: I think the evidence clearly shows that strong aneurotypicality is necessary but not sufficient for being a strong rationalist. The more off-kilter your mind is the more likely you are to just be crazy, but the more likely you are to be a top tier rationalist, up to the point where the numbers get rarer than one per billion. There are only so many OCD-schizotypal IQ>160 folk. I didn't state that at all clearly but you get the gist, maybe.)

Fantastic post. It goes a long way toward dissolving the question.

On the left we have the external world which generates the sensory inputs our agent uses to form beliefs.

Rhetorical question one: how is the singular term "agent" justified when there is a different configuration of molecules in the space the "agent" occupies from moment to moment? Wouldn't "agents" be better? What if the agent gets hit by a non-fatal brain-altering gamma ray burst or something? There's no natural quantitative point to say we have "an agent who has changed to become a different agent, such that when talking about the present and past agent, I will use 'agents' rather than '(a substantially unchanged) 'agent'", and neither is there a qualitative difference.

Answer: don't be crazy. It's basically one person.

Rhetorical question two: May I say that "Chocolate ice cream is more delicious than getting beaten with tire irons by a troop of gorillas", or should I stick with "I would prefer eating chocolate ice cream to getting beaten with tire irons by a troop of gorillas"?

Answer: words are handles, don't be confused by them, not all possible minds would have that set of preferences, but enough "human" ones do that it's reasonable to say: likewise for the class of beings I include under "human", there is a reasonable thing to mean by it.

So far, if I understand all of the content of this post correctly, this seems like a much more elegant and well-written account of my own beliefs about morality than my previous clumsy attempt at it.