Like, non religious monasteries where people would study, work together, live together ? The closest thing I can think of is the academia, but the academia doesn't seem like what I have on my mind.

Maybe Eliezer needs to start that Bayesian conspiracy for real, eh?

Can Humanism Match Religion's Output?

Previously in seriesYour Price for Joining

Perhaps the single largest voluntary institution of our modern world—bound together not by police and taxation, not by salaries and managers, but by voluntary donations flowing from its members—is the Catholic Church.

It's too large to be held together by individual negotiations, like a group task in a hunter-gatherer band.  But in a larger world with more people to be infected and faster transmission, we can expect more virulent memes.  The Old Testament doesn't talk about Hell, but the New Testament does.  The Catholic Church is held together by affective death spirals—around the ideas, the institutions, and the leaders.  By promises of eternal happiness and eternal damnation—theologians don't really believe that stuff, but many ordinary Catholics do.  By simple conformity of people meeting in person at a Church and being subjected to peer pressure.  &c.

We who have the temerity to call ourselves "rationalists", think ourselves too good for such communal bindings.

And so anyone with a simple and obvious charitable project—responding with food and shelter to a tidal wave in Thailand, say—would be better off by far pleading with the Pope to mobilize the Catholics, rather than with Richard Dawkins to mobilize the atheists.

For so long as this is true, any increase in atheism at the expense of Catholicism will be something of a hollow victory, regardless of all other benefits.

True, the Catholic Church also goes around opposing the use of condoms in AIDS-ravaged Africa.  True, they waste huge amounts of the money they raise on all that religious stuff.  Indulging in unclear thinking is not harmless, prayer comes with a price.

To refrain from doing damaging things, is a true victory for a rationalist...

Unless it is your only victory, in which case it seems a little empty.

If you discount all harm done by the Catholic Church, and look only at the good... then does the average Catholic do more gross good than the average atheist, just by virtue of being more active?

Perhaps if you are wiser but less motivated, you can search out interventions of high efficiency and purchase utilons on the cheap...  But there are few of us who really do that, as opposed to planning to do it someday.

Now you might at this point throw up your hands, saying:  "For so long as we don't have direct control over our brain's motivational circuitry, it's not realistic to expect a rationalist to be as strongly motivated as someone who genuinely believes that they'll burn eternally in hell if they don't obey."

This is a fair point.  Any folk theorem to the effect that a rational agent should do at least as well as a non-rational agent will rely on the assumption that the rational agent can always just implement whatever "irrational" policy is observed to win.  But if you can't choose to have unlimited mental energy, then it may be that some false beliefs are, in cold fact, more strongly motivating than any available true beliefs.  And if we all generally suffer from altruistic akrasia, being unable to bring ourselves to help as much as we think we should, then it is possible for the God-fearing to win the contest of altruistic output.

But though it is a motivated continuation, let us consider this question a little further.

Even the fear of hell is not a perfect motivator.  Human beings are not given so much slack on evolution's leash; we can resist motivation for a short time, but then we run out of mental energy (HT: infotropism).  Even believing that you'll go to hell does not change this brute fact about brain circuitry.  So the religious sin, and then are tormented by thoughts of going to hell, in much the same way that smokers reproach themselves for being unable to quit.

If a group of rationalists cared a lot about something... who says they wouldn't be able to match the real, de-facto output of a believing Catholic?  The stakes might not be "infinite" happiness or "eternal" damnation, but of course the brain can't visualize 3^^^3, let alone infinity.  Who says that the actual quantity of caring neurotransmitters discharged by the brain (as 'twere) has to be so much less for "the growth and flowering of humankind" or even "tidal-wave-stricken Thais", than for "eternal happiness in Heaven"?  Anything involving more than 100 people is going to involve utilities too large to visualize.  And there are all sorts of other standard biases at work here; knowing about them might be good for a bonus as well, one hopes?

Cognitive-behavioral therapy and Zen meditation are two mental disciplines experimentally shown to yield real improvements.  It is not the area of the art I've focused on developing, but then I don't have a real martial art of rationality in back of me.  If you combine a purpose genuinely worth caring about, with discipline extracted from CBT and Zen meditation, then who says rationalists can't keep up?  Or even more generally: if we have an evidence-based art of fighting akrasia, with experiments to see what actually works, then who says we've got to be less motivated than some disorganized mind that fears God's wrath?

Still... that's a further-future speculation that it might be possible to develop an art that doesn't presently exist.  It's not a technique I can use right now.  I present it just to illustrate the idea of not giving up so fast on rationality:  Understanding what's going wrong, trying intelligently to fix it, and gathering evidence on whether it worked—this is a powerful idiom, not to be lightly dismissed upon sighting the first disadvantage.

Really, I suspect that what's going on here has less to do with the motivating power of eternal damnation, and a lot more to do with the motivating power of physically meeting other people who share your cause.  The power, in other words, of being physically present at church and having religious neighbors.

This is a problem for the rationalist community in its present stage of growth, because we are rare and geographically distributed way the hell all over the place.  If all the readers of this blog lived within a 5-mile radius of each other, I bet we'd get a lot more done, not for reasons of coordination but just sheer motivation.

I'll post tomorrow about some long-term, starry-eyed, idealistic thoughts on this particular problem.  Shorter-term solutions that don't rely on our increasing our numbers by a factor of 100 would be better.  I wonder in particular whether the best modern videoconferencing software would provide some of the motivating effect of meeting someone in person; I suspect the answer is "no" but it might be worth trying.

Meanwhile... in the short-term, we're stuck fighting akrasia mostly without the reinforcing physical presense of other people who care.  I want to say something like "This is difficult, but it can be done" except I'm not sure that's even true.

I suspect that the largest step rationalists could take toward matching the per-capita power output of the Catholic Church would be to have regular physical meetings of people contributing to the same task—not for purposes of coordination, just for purposes of of motivation.

In the absence of that...

We could try for a group norm of being openly allowed—nay, applauded—for caring strongly about something.  And a group norm of being expected to do something useful with your life—contribute your part to cleaning up this world.  Religion doesn't really emphasize the getting-things-done aspect as much.

And if rationalists could match just half the average altruistic effort output per Catholic, then I don't think it's remotely unrealistic to suppose that with better targeting on more efficient causes, the modal rationalist could get twice as much done.

How much of its earnings does the Catholic Church spend on all that useless religious stuff instead of actually helping people?  More than 50%, I would venture.  So then we could say—with a certain irony, though that's not quite the spirit in which we should be doing things—that we should try to propagate a group norm of donating a minimum of 5% of income to real causes.  (10% being the usual suggested minimum religious tithe.)  And then there's the art of picking causes for which expected utilons are orders of magnitude cheaper (for so long as the inefficient market in utilons lasts).

But long before we can begin to dream of any such boast, we secular humanists need to work on at least matching the per capita benevolent output of the worshippers.

 

Part of the sequence The Craft and the Community

Next post: "Church vs. Taskforce"

Previous post: "Your Price for Joining"

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So inasmuch as possible, we'll need real world meetings : humans are social beings, and it was customary to see, hear, touch, smell even, people who'd be in your group in the environment of adaptation. Do we have any rationalist bonfire in preparation ? Excursions ? Doing sport together ? Watching films ?

It's pretty difficult to bond as strongly - and more importantly, as richly - to other people if you don't meet them in real life. That bond is what makes us work together so well, what can oil a well working machine. Families, groups of - real life - friends, are not uncommonly the starting point for successful ventures.

And I think it's not just the meeting in real life part. We need to build up a link, to feel the presence of the other, as another human being, as we would a friend. We need to share activities outside of just meeting an planning stuff.

We need to get to know and like each other on that fundamental level, by using the goddamn social machinery that's in our head. We're human beings before being rationalists, and we need to use that to our advantage, down to the last bit of it, rather than constantly forgetting about that fact. We run on corrupt hardware, we aren't rational, disembodied pristine minds. If we deprive ourselves, as well as our community, from that social background, then we will not thrive, and may even wither.

Side question, do we have anything secular, not religious, that looks like religious institutions ? Like, non religious monasteries where people would study, work together, live together ? The closest thing I can think of is the academia, but the academia doesn't seem like what I have on my mind.

What about religious feasts, celebrations, rituals even ? Do we have a lot of non religious rituals around, that could be recuperated, or at least inspire us ? We could use that, at least on a human level, it'd help foster people's willpower, brighten the fire inside. So long as we can direct that energy towards rational goals, and keep watch for any sign of becoming cult-ish, couldn't we benefit from such things ?

Like, non religious monasteries where people would study, work together, live together ? The closest thing I can think of is the academia, but the academia doesn't seem like what I have on my mind.

Maybe Eliezer needs to start that Bayesian conspiracy for real, eh?

And I do care strongly about victims of torture and war. I care about those trapped in dead-end countries or existences, who can't move to seek a better life. I care about the future of myself and the rest of humanity.

Corny to say it, but it's true.

On Kiva the group that has donated the most money is the "Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious" group.

We should not underestimate the power of rational thinking for getting the most out of each charity dollar (or unit of effort). Maybe you've heard of charities that give people's old clothes to poor parts of Africa; while this makes people feel good, it has flooded the markets with dirt-cheap clothing, destroying the local textile industry and contributing to the very poverty that the well-meaning donors seek to alleviate.

This is what impresses me about groups like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation: they focus on things that are less glamorous but probably more useful, like providing basic financial services in poor areas, or doing R&D on how to make good public health cheaper. This is the kind of thing that can make a difference in the long term, and lead to exponentially growing ripple effects. Charity can be a lot more effective if you spend your resources with your head, not your heart.

I don't want to become a "cleaning up this world"-bot. I have my own goals and aims in life, and they are distinct from the goal of "producing as much positive utility for humanity" as possible. I'd rather spend £99 out of every £100 on myself than give it to a random poor person in the third world, because I am more important than s/he is (more important in the subjective, antirealist sense). If anyone here really is a totally dedicated altruist, (in the sense of weighing the welfare of the other 6*10^9 people on the planet equally to your own) then I pity you, but I'm glad you exist.

In general, this problem is not soluble, i.e. you can't get a pound worth of altruism from a penny worth of desire to help strangers, at least without the kind of mind-control strategies that religion employs. But we've already decided we don't want to do that.

However, in the special case of accelerating technology and the singularity, the problem is soluble, because even 1% of the optimizing ability of an FAI is enough to lift the third world from poverty to paradise.

Apologies for going off topic - but I couldn't really avoid it...

I don't want to become a "cleaning up this world"-bot. I have my own goals and aims in life, and they are distinct from the goal of "producing as much positive utility for humanity" as possible. I'd rather spend £99 out of every £100 on myself than give it to a random poor person in the third world, because I am more important than s/he is (more important in the subjective, antirealist sense).

Hey, that's fine. You certainly don't have to try to justify your basic utility function. But for people who want to do more to help the rest of the world (even if we prioritize ourselves first), it can be hard just to get ourselves to act rationally in pursuit of this goal. That's the issue at hand.

It would seem that Greene has deconverted you away from objective morality along different lines than I was trying for myself.

Anyway, your comment suggests that FAI should take its funding primarily from the most selfish of rationalists who still have a trace of altruism in them, since FAI would be the only project where expected utilons can be purchased so cheaply as to move them; and leave more altruistic funding to more mundane projects.

Now, what are the odds that would work in real life? I would think very low. FAI is likely to actually need those rare folk who can continue supporting without a lot of in-person support and encouragement and immediately visible concrete results, leaving the others to those projects which are more intuitively encouraging to a human brain.

It seems to me that no matter what people claim about their selfishness or altruism, the real line is between those who can bring themselves to do something about it under conditions X and those who can't - and that the actual payoff in expected utilons matters little, but the reinforcing conditions matter a lot.

But perhaps I am mistaken.

The reason Catholics are better organized than humanists is that they're official, communal, and hierarchical and we're not. The reason cults are better organized than Catholics is that they're even more official, communal, and hierarchical.

If the Pope says "Donate ten percent of your money to me," then there's an expectation that ordinary Catholics will obey. They've committed to following what the Pope says.

If you, Eliezer, posted on this forum "Please donate ten percent of your money to the Institute That Must Not Be Named", well...actually, I don't know what would happen. A few rare people might do it to signal that we liked you. But although we often follow you, we are not your followers. We haven't made a committment to you. We associate with you as long as it's convenient for us, but as soon as it stops being convenient, we'll wander off.

If you really want to get an infrastructure as powerful as the Catholic Church, you need to ask us to officially swear loyalty to you and start publically self-identifying as Rationalists with a capital R (the capital letter is very important!) You need to put us through some painful initiation ritual, so we feel a commitment to stick around even when the going gets tough. You need to make us publically profess how great Rationalism is to all our friends enough times that it would be a major social embarrassment to get kicked out for not obeying you enough. You need to establish a norm that following Eliezer's requests is so completely expected it would be strange to refuse and we'd be going against all our friends. And then you need to keep telling us about how much better off we are as capital-R Rationalists than as members of the boring old general public. Then you can start ordering us to donate ten percent of our income and expect Pope-level compliance rates.

The cultists do all of this, and the Catholics try but generally fail, which is why many Catholics don't listen to the Pope nearly as much as atheists think. If you didn't want to go quite this far, even making us pay $5 for a (physical, laminated, colorful) Less Wrong membership card would probably make a difference. Once we did that, we'd be members of something, instead of people who came to a blog every so often to discuss an interest. The brain cares a lot about this sort of thing.

[edit: better explanation below in response to ciphergoth]

That's the way they do it. I'm asking if there's a different way to do it.

Point A: A lot of rationalists think wistfully that it would be a good thing if X got done.

Point B: X gets done.

How do you get from Point A to Point B?

Step 1. Some one person decides they will do whatever it takes to ensure that X will be done (including convincing others to assist).

Step 2. ???

Step 3. Profit! ...uh, utility. ;-)

Yes, we know that churches and cults thrive by exploiting well-understood cognitive biases, but you're sort of sidestepping the central thrust of what EY is getting at in this, which AFAICT is simply:

Isn't there some way we could make use of the power of collective action because it's actually a good idea, rather than relying on cognitive bias to cohere us? Rather than hanging onto the biases that bring us together, couldn't we get there by fighting the biases that keep us apart?

No, I'm not saying they thrive by bias, exactly, or at least not the simple kind of bias. They thrive by having a hierarchy and being official. They thrive because they've made a commitment.

Consider marriage. In an ideal world, two people would stay monogamous purely because they loved each other. In reality, that monogamy is going to be tested, and there's going to be some point at which they don't want to keep it. When they're rational, they know the best thing for their future and their children is to stay together, but they realize that they might be too short-sighted to do so later. So they use the institution of marriage to make it socially, financially, and theologically impossible for them to split up later. It's the present self binding potentially irrational future selves. Not only is it not a bias, but if it's done right it's an antidote to bias.

There's that one website, whatsitsname, where you send them money and a resolution. Maybe it's "I will go to the gym every day for a month", and you send them $100. At the end of the month, if you went to the gym every day, they send your money back; if you didn't, they keep it. I wouldn't say you were biased into going to the gym, I'd say you discovered a clever technique to make you do it.

Organizations, at least the ones you join voluntarily, are another clever technique for causing that kind of commitment. And yeah, a lot of the techniques they use to do it, like the initiation ceremonies, are biases. But I don't consider biases that smart people invoke voluntarily to control their akrasia to always be great evils.

I think using bias to fight bias is an extremely risky technique, since it must surely call for self-deception on some level. I'm not a fan of marriage or monogamy either so those examples don't ring bells for me.

Perhaps part of the reason rationalists can't be "aimed" at certain charities even by our self-chosen objects of admiration is that we consider their instructions overrideable without moral cost. If Random Catholic X believes that the Pope delivers the infallible will of God, then anything Random Catholic X does that disobeys the Pope - regardless of his specific situation, assuming the Pope doesn't explicitly exclude people in that situation - is wrong. It's not necessarily that Random Catholic X is thinking occurently about the possibility that he will go to Hell for disobeying, it's that he has no avenue out.

Whereas Random Rationalist Y - I present myself as an example - admires other rationalists for at least partially cognized good reasons. If I have better reasons for doing something other than that which is recommended to me by Eliezer or Dawkins or whoever is making requests of me, than I do for listening to the person in the first place, I am unlikely to follow the suggestion. After all, I don't believe any such person was chosen by God, I don't believe they're infallible, and I also think that there are many individual features of my situation which are relevant and of which such people are generally ignorant. In short, if I have reasons to aim myself differently than the leaders of the rationalist community would like to aim me, I can override their authority without feeling bad about it.

For in-person meeting, can I suggest the vehicle of the Ethical Culture Society? If the idea is benevolent output, the fact that its primary shtick isn't rationalism shouldn't matter. The trouble is there aren't very many chapters; I can't attend one although I want to, because they're all too far away. But they already exist, and more could be started.

(As a side note, I recommend Kiva for efficient charity. It's a microloan site instead of a direct donation, so you can recycle the same contribution indefinitely after you get paid back or even withdraw it if you have to. It also contributes in a way that allows long-term sustainability instead of just throwing beans and rice at a population, because the recipients of loans have businesses that they expand and then use the income therefrom to return the money. And paying anything to the overhead of Kiva itself is explicit and optional.)

Individual rationalists simply CAN be aimed at charities. Action with incomplete information IS possible or you would never do anything and the analyses that many rationalists routinely give are far better information than most people normally act upon.

Eliezer wrote, "Really, I suspect that what's going on here has less to do with the motivating power of eternal damnation, and a lot more to do with the motivating power of physically meeting other people who share your cause."

I think this observation strikes very close to the heart of the matter. People will tell you they attend Catholic mass, for example, for any number of reasons, most of which are probably not available to introspection, but which actually relate to our functioning as social animals. People are motivated to meet other people, and church attendance is one of the few remaining outlets for this tendency. Whether the rationale for congregating is to uphold some deep cause is almost beside the point for the majority. Certainly there will be some for whom some cause is salient and pressing; they are the visible and the vocal, not the representative.

It is perhaps tempting to offer up Catholicism as a proxy for Christianity, and Christianity as a proxy for religion. Bear in mind, though, that Western and Eastern Christianity do not even agree on when to celebrate their holiest day, Easter. Then there are some rather yawning doctrinal disparities between Protestant sects and Roman Catholicism, and even then within itself. There is a growing movement among Catholics to have the mass recited to them in Latin. A prototypical rationalist might call this practice an example of willful obscurantism and worshipping ignorance, but that would be incorrect. It seems unlikely that the point is to comprehend the words of a dead language, but rather to use the setting as a means of priming a type of experience that William James was talking about.

In addition to Yvain's catalogue of Catholics being communal, hierarchical, and official, one could add socially reinforcing. If your co-religionist is giving 10% of his income to support church activities, and you know this is true (it's easy to find out), then there is social pressure not to be a slouch when it comes to tithing--a phenomenon of competition in terms of signaling commitment to cooperative behavior. Would rationalists would ever do that?

"Eliezer wrote, "Really, I suspect that what's going on here has less to do with the motivating power of eternal damnation, and a lot more to do with the motivating power of physically meeting other people who share your cause.""

Why do people go to Overcoming Bias meet-ups? I doubt that those meetings in restaurants are very productive from a becoming-more-rational perspective.

I apologize for the criticism, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

However, I want to point out that donating money (and therefore, asking for money) is a somewhat dangerous habit to get into, because it is so very, very fungible (the very essence of fungibleness). I think this is why people sometimes do canned-food drives - even with the weird inefficiencies of collecting and sending canned food instead of money, there's more trust that the money isn't being quietly (or accidentally) diverted into "self-sustaining" efforts - like asking for more money.

In your rhetoric, could you please use more variety - not just money, but also other goods like volunteering time, or a mix of time and money?

I confess I hadn't thought of that particular aspect of a canned goods drive - which may or may not be true, e.g., donated cars are sold rather than given to the poor. I had written it off as a desire to purchase moral satisfaction.

But anyone who works in the nonprofit industry knows this fact, sad but true: Volunteering money is much more helpful than volunteering time. Unless you're a professional and you're willing to volunteer large blocks of concentrated time with high work priority. The power of work concentration and specialization is the elementary reason why the whole economy runs that way.

The Mormon Church has much higher compliance rates on tithing and gets a lot more out of its followers than Catholicism. They have Church-only welfare systems and other practical benefits conditional on membership, require spouses and family to turn their backs on those who leave, censor/forbid 'dangerous' information, have followers go on long missionary trips to make belief more of their identity, etc.

In general, I don't think you should view tithing in the face of strong Dark Side techniques as really voluntary charitable giving: people give more because of the pressure, and the religious organizations want to do visible 'good works' (other than paying priests and for temple construction) for recruiting and retention purposes.

I wonder in particular whether the best modern videoconferencing software would provide some of the motivating effect of meeting someone in person; I suspect the answer is "no" but it might be worth trying.

I am almost certain the answer is "at least a little bit".

More generally, I know that Aumann's Agreement Theorem means that it should be possible for a group of self-described rationalists to agree on what they should do next, but in practice I think that any choice of subgoal would reduce the number of rationalists who would want to be on board.

Conveniently (suspiciously so perhaps) the subgoal I am increasingly convinced would do the most good for effort involved is also one which it might be easiest to get rationalists to unite around: promoting rationalism itself. Think how different the world would be if people were to shut up and multiply a little more...

I am almost certain the answer is "at least a little bit".

I agree. The effect would probably be pretty big, in fact.

Even with something fairly low-tech (webcams, you look at your screen and you see little stamp-sized videos of the faces of everybody), a weekly videoconference to discuss all things rational would be a big motivator, IMO.

Just imagining it feels motivating, possibly because right now when I think of the people here, I mostly see screennames (except for Eliezer, but that's because I've seen videos of him), and for obvious evolutionary reasons that doesn't generate the same response as seeing human faces (f.ex. over the past few weeks I've been asking myself: Who's Yvain? Where is he from? What does he do? How old is he? What does he look like? Even if I know that this shouldn't, in theory, be important for the purpose of reading his stuff).

Maybe just a voice conference call could be useful (http://www.freeconferencecall.com/ ?). It probably can't replace the written word for the purpose of teaching rationality, but it can certainly help make all of this more real from a human point of view, and thus motivate us. And like a religious gathering, not everybody has to speak to feel part of it.

Real life example: For the past 3-4 years I've been working from home (in Canada) for a US company. At first we did almost everything via email and text chat. Then we started doing a few conference calls and that helped make it more real and improve esprit de corps a lot. But the game-changer was really when they flew all of us to New York to meet face to face. The effect of that is still felt; even more than a year later there's a different rapport with the people I met face to face than with those that joined after that meeting.

...suggesting that the single thing I could do to make the biggest improvement to the world with the least effort would be to fix this bug:

http://code.google.com/p/lesswrong/issues/detail?id=108

Maybe we should make video of ourselves available, just so we seem more real? Maybe we should be doing promiscuous bloggingheads.tv-style conversations?

On the Wiki page for Ego Depletion linked above, there's an interesting aside. A "positive mood stimulus" like an unexpected gift or a comedy movie clip seems to be able to restore people's depleted self control reserves.

I wonder in particular whether the best modern videoconferencing software would provide some of the motivating effect of meeting someone in person; I suspect the answer is "no" but it might be worth trying.

How about trying to use Croquet (or some other 3D collaborative environment, with voice chat)?

I have seen people form strong attachments of responsibility to groups while playing World of Warcraft. A friend of mine will frequently beg off social engagements because of scheduled in-game events to which he needs to contribute. Something about the 3-D avatars seems to do the job.

In fact, I'd start even simpler. We need profiles. I'm not saying we turn LessWrong into Facebook, but our brains are wired to track humans, and specifically to respond to faces. I think if we simply had a photo of each LessWrong member appearing next to their submissions (as Emile has also suggested), it would help to excite those faculties. In addition, if each member had a place to write about themselves for a line or two, or link to a personal website, that might help.

I wonder in particular whether the best modern videoconferencing software would provide some of the motivating effect of meeting someone in person; I suspect the answer is "no" but it might be worth trying.

It probably would a little bit, but it would be such a hassle to set up that only a small fraction of people would do it.

A smaller but easier step in the same direction would be to use real names and real photos on this site.

As for solutions to akrasia, pjeby may have some, you have mentioned meditation, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, and other posters mentioned yoga and (some) drugs. Something in there ought to give interesting results.

As for solutions to akrasia, pjeby may have some

Reading the key paragraph in pjeby's article The Hidden Meaning of "Just Do It" has helped me to break through a 2-month-long round of procrastination.

Also, the 80/20 elimination techniques in Timothy Ferris' "4-Hour Workweek" seem to work surprisingly well for me -- especially in combination with pjeby's secret meaning of "just do it". I'm about halfway through Ferris' book, and I haven't read other pjeby's articles, but so far, this combo does wonders.

Btw, that article is embarrassingly out-of-date relative to my current methods. This video is a much better introduction to a more current method of "just doing it". In particular, it gives step-by-step instruction and is ridiculously easy to test.

Blink. Blink. Blink.

I watched that video and did what it told me to. Since I happen to have a rather messy desk, I could just apply that example directly.

For the last three or four minutes of the video, I couldn't wait that it'd finish so I could get around to cleaning my desk. Then I did, and it's clean now. For the record: even when I clean the rest of my room, I never get around cleaning my desk. When I did it now, I found an old receipt, dated December 2006. I hadn't really cleaned my desk after that.

And now I'd done it, after watching a ten-minute video and done some simple exercises for about five minutes. Because it had made me feel I wanted to.

I don't know how much of it was me just wanting the technique to work, and if the effectiveness of the technique will wear off with time (as has often been the fate with my previous anti-procrastination techniques), but if it does work consistently... this will so change my life. I will be eternally in your debt if it will.

If anybody here has any kinds of problems with procrastination, go watch that video right now. I mean that.

Thanks Pjeby. That video is brilliant. I noticed that it closely matched one of the most useful techniques that I've found in the NLP subculture (hidden amongst the nonsense). I'll be sure to take a look at anything your upcoming book has to say about eliminating irrational beliefs that interfere with the motivation process.

One short-term solution I can see helping with this problem is to have rationalists cluster closer together. This already happens indirectly, when geographic locations are occupied by organizations and cultures that attract or require people with a higher-than-average rate of rationalism. We could encourage this on different scales, clustering in cities, regions, or even in neighborhoods and houses. My housemates and I are already doing this. We collect the more interesting, motivated, insightful people we meet, mostly from the university, and integrate them into our social network. Occasionally we invite them to move in with us. On a slightly longer timescale (2 months - 2 years), we have been discussing moving into a larger house with more people. It is a slow process, but we are seeing progress.

We have managed to collect a group of 4-5 around classes and hectic life events in just under two years. While this is still too small a number to draw any firm conclusions, the rate of acquisition seems to be increasing, and I strongly suspect it will further accelerate the more people we have.

Really, I suspect that what's going on here has less to do with the motivating power of eternal damnation, and a lot more to do with the motivating power of physically meeting other people who share your cause.

Agreed. As I've discussed on OB, I spent an hour a week of my first 18 years in a Catholic church, and this rings very true. When I think back to the social exchanges between the clergy, I'm struck by how comfortable they [ahem, we] all strove to make one another. All the usual ins-and-outs and cliquey elements of any close-knit group were present - and not all of them pleasant - but I never saw any overt, public, disagreement or argument. It was taboo - simply didn't happen.

More corroboration - no-one ever talked about God outside the four walls of the church. Bingo, fundraisers, family, gossip, but pretty much no religion.

But long before we can begin to dream of any such boast, we secular humanists need to work on at least matching the per capita benevolent output of the worshippers.

www.amnesty.org.uk

Those people are out there Eliezer, as you no doubt know. There are secular humanists - incredible rationalists - who spend every waking moment backing up their rational altruism with energy and action. Sadly, I fear that they have more in common with the active, benevolent religious altruists of the world than with any forum-posting aspiring rationalists.

As to meeting - one thing the various religious meetings aren't, is one big argument. If you're going to have rationalists meet to develop a community, there ought to be a driving purpose, something to achieve with the time besides disagree with each other. Perhaps a "virtual dojo"? Someone has to start building the "martial art", it isn't going to invent itself.

If you're going to do that, though, charge money. You said it yourself elsewhere: if you aren't prepared to pay for it, you don't care.

You wrote "True, the Catholic Church also goes around opposing the use of condoms in AIDS-ravaged Africa. "

This might be the right rationalist position:

http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2009/03/18/a-dead-debate/

"That aside, the good news for the Catholic Church’s supporters is that–even if, inevitably, the Pope’s counterintuitive suggestion enraged the liberal establishment–many editorialists now accept at least part of the Catholic position that the best solution to AIDS in Africa is fundamental behavior change, rather than condoms."

Passing out condoms increases the amount of sex but makes each sex act less dangerous. So theoretically it's indeterminant whether it increases or decreases the spread of AIDS.

Cognitive-behavioral therapy and Zen meditation are two mental disciplines experimentally shown to yield real improvements.

Does anyone have a link or citation to actual research that supports this claim? It sounds plausible, I just want to check and see exactly how strong the evidence is before investing dozens of hours and/or a few thousand bucks.