Natural Laws Are Descriptions, not Rules

Laws as Rules

We speak casually of the laws of nature determining the distribution of matter and energy, or governing the behavior of physical objects. Implicit in this rhetoric is a metaphysical picture: the laws are rules that constrain the temporal evolution of stuff in the universe. In some important sense, the laws are prior to the distribution of stuff. The physicist Paul Davies expresses this idea with a bit more flair: "[W]e have this image of really existing laws of physics ensconced in a transcendent aerie, lording it over lowly matter." The origins of this conception can be traced back to the beginnings of the scientific revolution, when Descartes and Newton established the discovery of laws as the central aim of physical inquiry. In a scientific culture immersed in theism, it was unproblematic, even natural, to think of physical laws as rules. They are rules laid down by God that drive the development of the universe in accord with His divine plan.

Does this prescriptive conception of law make sense in a secular context? Perhaps if we replace the divine creator of traditional religion with a more naturalist-friendly lawgiver, such as an ur-simulator. But what if there is no intentional agent at the root of it all? Ordinarily, when I think of a physical system as constrained by some rule, it is not the rule itself doing the constraining. The rule is just a piece of language; it is an expression of a constraint that is actually enforced by interaction with some other physical system -- a programmer, say, or a physical barrier, or a police force. In the sort of picture Davies presents, however, it is the rules themselves that enforce the constraint. The laws lord it over lowly matter. So on this view, the fact that all electrons repel one another is explained by the existence of some external entity, not an ordinary physical entity but a law of nature, that somehow forces electrons to repel one another, and this isn't just short-hand for God or the simulator forcing the behavior.

I put it to you that this account of natural law is utterly mysterious and borders on the nonsensical. How exactly are abstract, non-physical objects -- laws of nature, living in their "transcendent aerie" -- supposed to interact with physical stuff? What is the mechanism by which the constraint is applied? Could the laws of nature have been different, so that they forced electrons to attract one another? The view should also be anathema to any self-respecting empiricist, since the laws appear to be idle danglers in the metaphysical theory. What is the difference between a universe where all electrons, as a matter of contingent fact, attract one another, and a universe where they attract one another because they are compelled to do so by the really existing laws of physics? Is there any test that could distinguish between these states of affairs?

Laws as Descriptions

There are those who take the incoherence of the secular prescriptive conception of laws as reason to reject the whole concept of laws of nature as an anachronistic holdover from a benighted theistic age. I don't think the situation is that dire. Discovering laws of nature is a hugely important activity in physics. It turns out that the behavior of large classes of objects can be given a unified compact mathematical description, and this is crucial to our ability to exercise predictive control over our environment. The significant word in the last sentence is "description". A much more congenial alternative to the prescriptive view is available. Instead of thinking of laws as rules that have an existence above and beyond the objects they govern, think of them as particularly concise and powerful descriptions of regular behavior.

On this descriptive conception of laws, the laws do not exist independently in some transcendent realm. They are not prior to the distribution of matter and energy. The laws are just descriptions of salient patterns in that distribution. Of course, if this is correct, then our talk of the laws governing matter must be understood as metaphorical, but this is a small price to pay for a view that actually makes sense. There may be a concern that we are losing some important explanatory ground here. After all, on the prescriptive view the laws of nature explain why all electrons attract one another, whereas on the descriptive view the laws just restate the fact that all electrons attract one another. But consider the following dialogue:

A: Why are these two metal blocks repelling each other?

B: Because they're both negatively charged, which means they have an excess of electrons, and electrons repel one another.

A: But why do electrons repel one another?

B: Because like charges always repel.

A: But why is that?

B: Because if you do the path integral for the electromagnetic field (using Maxwell's Lagrangian) with source terms corresponding to two spatially separated lumps of identical charge density, you will find that the potential energy of the field is greater the smaller the spatial separation between the lumps, and we know the force points in the opposite direction to the gradient of the potential energy.

A: But why are the dynamics of the electromagnetic field derived from Maxwell's Lagrangian rather than some other equation? And why does the path integral method work at all?

B: BECAUSE IT IS THE LAW.

Is the last link in this chain doing any explanatory work at all? Does it give us any further traction on the problem? B might as well have ended that conversation by saying "Well, that's just the way things are." Now, laws of nature do have a privileged role in physical explanation, but that privilege is due to their simplicity and generality, not to some mysterious quasi-causal power they exert over matter. The fact that a certain generalization is a law of nature does not account for the truth and explanatory power of the generalization, any more than the fact that a soldier has won the Medal of Honor accounts for his or her courage in combat. Lawhood is a recognition of the generalization's truth and explanatory power. It is an honorific; it doesn't confer any further explanatory oomph.

The Best System Account of Laws

David Lewis offers us a somewhat worked out version of the descriptive conception of law. Consider the set of all truths about the world expressible in a particular language. We can construct deductive systems out of this set of propositions by picking out some of the propositions as axioms. The logical consequences of these axioms are the theorems of the deductive system. These deductive systems compete with one another along (at least) two dimensions: the simplicity of the axioms, and the strength or information content of the system as a whole. We prefer systems that give us more information about the world, but this greater strength often comes at the cost of simplicity. For instance, a system whose axioms comprised the entire set of truths about the world would be maximally strong, but not simple at all. Conversely, a system whose only axiom is something like "Stuff happens" would be pretty simple, but very uninformative. What we are looking for is the appropriate balance of simplicity and strength [1].

According to Lewis, the laws of nature correspond to the axioms of the deductive system that best balances simplicity and strength. He does not provide a precise algorithm for evaluating this balance, and I don't think his proposal should be read as an attempt at a technically precise decision procedure for lawhood anyway. It is more like a heuristic picture of what we are doing when we look for laws. We are looking for simple generalizations that can be used to deduce a large amount of information about the world. Laws are highly compressed descriptions of broad classes of phenomena. This view evidently differs quite substantially from the Davies picture I presented at the beginning of this post. On Lewis's view, the collection of particular facts about the world determines the laws of nature, since the laws are merely compact descriptions of those facts. On Davies's view, the determination runs the other way. The laws are independent entities that determine the particular facts about the world. Stuff in the world is arranged the way it is because the laws compelled that arrangement.

One last point about Lewis's account. Lewis acknowledges that there is an important language dependence in his view of laws. If we ignore this, we get absurd results. For instance, consider a system whose only axiom is "For all x, x is F" where "F" is defined to be a predicate that applies to all and only events that occur in this world. This axiom is maximally informative, since it rules out all other possible worlds, and it seems exceedingly simple. Yet we wouldn't want to declare it a law of nature. The problem, obviously, is that all the complexity of the axiom is hidden by our choice of language, with this weird specially rigged predicate. To rule out this possibility, Lewis specifies that all candidate deductive systems must employ the vocabulary of fundamental physics.

But we could also regard lawhood as a 2-place function which maps a proposition and vocabulary pair to "True" if the proposition is an axiom of the best system in that vocabulary and "False" otherwise. Lewis has chosen to curry this function by fixing the vocabulary variable. Leaving the function uncurried, however, highlights that we could have different laws for different vocabularies and, consequently, for different levels of description. If I were an economist, I wouldn't be interested (at least not qua economist) in deductive systems that talked about quarks and leptons. I would be interested in deductive systems that talked about prices and demand. The best system for this coarser-grained vocabulary will give us the laws of economics, distinct from the laws of physics.

Lawhood Is in the Map, not in the Territory

There is another significant difference between the descriptive and prescriptive accounts that I have not yet discussed. On the Davies-style conception of laws as rules, lawhood is an element of reality. A law is a distinctive beast, an abstract entity perched in a transcendent aerie. On the descriptive account, by comparison, lawhood is part of our map, not the territory. Note that I am not saying that the laws themselves are a feature of the map and not the territory. Laws are just particularly salient redundancies, ones that permit us to construct useful compressed descriptions of reality. These redundancies are, of course, out there in the territory. However, the fact that certain regularities are especially useful for the organization of knowledge is at least partially dependent on facts about us, since we are the ones doing the organizing in pursuit of our particular practical projects. Nature does not flag these regularities as laws, we do.

This realization has consequences for how we evaluate certain forms of reductionism. I should begin by noting that there is a type of reductionism I tentatively endorse and that I think is untouched by these speculations. I call this mereological reductionism [2]; it is the claim that all the stuff in the universe is entirely built out of the kinds of things described by fundamental physics. The vague statement is intentional, since fundamental physicists aren't yet sure what kinds of things they are describing, but the motivating idea behind the view is to rule out the existence of immaterial souls and the like. However, reductionists typically embrace a stronger form of reductionism that one might label nomic reductionism [3]. The view is that the fundamental laws of physics are the only really existant laws, and that laws in the non-fundamental disciplines are merely convenient short-cuts that we must employ due to our computational limitations.

One appealing argument for this form of reductionism is the apparent superfluity of non-fundamental laws. Macroscopic systems are entirely built out of parts whose behavior is determined by the laws of physics. It follows that the behavior of these systems is also fixed by those fundamental laws. Additional non-fundamental laws are otiose; there is nothing left for them to do. Barry Loewer puts it like this: "Why would God make [non-fundamental laws] the day after he made physics when the world would go on exactly as if they were there without them?" If these laws play no explanatory role, Ockham's razor demands that we strike them from our ontological catalog, leaving only the fundamental laws.

I trust it is apparent that this argument relies on the prescriptive conception of laws. It assumes that real laws of nature do stuff; they push and pull matter and energy around. It is this implicit assumption that raises the overdetermination concern. On this assumption, if the fundamental laws of physics are already lording it over all matter, then there is no room for another locus of authority. However, the argument (and much of the appeal of the associated reductionist viewpoint) fizzles, if we regard laws as descriptive. Employing a Lewisian account, all we have are different best systems, geared towards vocabularies at different resolutions, that highlight different regularities as the basis for a compressed description of a system. There is nothing problematic with having different ways to compress information about a system. Specifically, we are not compelled by worries about overdetermination to declare one of these methods of compression to be more real than another. In response to Loewer's theological question, the proponent of the descriptive conception could say that God does not get to separately specify the non-fundamental and fundamental laws. By creating the pattern of events in space-time she implicitly fixes them all.

Nomic reductionism would have us believe that the lawhood of the laws of physics is part of the territory, while the lawhood of the laws of psychology is just part of our map. Once we embrace the descriptive conception of laws, however, there is no longer this sharp ontological divide between the fundamental and non-fundamental laws. One reason for privileging the laws of physics is revealed to be the product of a confused metaphysical picture. However, one might think there are still other good reasons for privileging these laws that entail a reductionism more robust than the mereological variety. For instance, even if we accept that laws of physics don't possess a different ontological status, we can still believe that they have a prized position in the explanatory hierarchy. This leads to explanatory reductionism, the view that explanations couched in the vocabulary of fundamental physics are always better because fundamental physics provides us with more accurate models than the non-fundamental sciences. Also, even if one denies that the laws of physics themselves are pushing matter around, one can still believe that all the actual pushing and pulling there is, all the causal action, is described by the laws of physics, and that the non-fundamental laws do not describe genuine causal relations. We could call this kind of view causal reductionism.

Unfortunately for the reductionist, explanatory and causal reductionism don't fare much better than nomic reductionism. Stay tuned for the reasons why!

 


 

[1] Lewis actually adds a third desideratum, fit, that allows for the evaluation of systems with probabilistic axioms, but I leave this out for simplicity of exposition. I have tweaked Lewis's presentation in a couple of other ways as well. For his own initial presentation of the view, see Counterfactuals, pp. 72-77. For a more up-to-date presentation, dealing especially with issues involving probabilistic laws, see this paper (PDF).

[2] From the Greek meros, meaning "part".

[3] From the Greek nomos, meaning "law".

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A: But why are the dynamics of the electromagnetic field derived from Maxwell's Lagrangian rather than some other equation? And why does the path integral method work at all?

B: What do you mean by "why"?

A: Hey, wait a minute, I'm asking the questions here! Um ... I mean ... I want an explanation of what makes the world that way.

B: Really, you do? You didn't like the last three explanations I gave you. What was wrong with them?

A: They didn't go deep enough. They explained things in the world in terms of deeper and deeper levels, but there was always something left to explain.

B: What would it feel like to have a deep-enough explanation? What are some things for which you think you do have a deep-enough explanation?

A: I don't know. Arithmetic, maybe? I don't feel the need to have a deeper explanation of 1 + 1 = 2, I'm happy saying that it just does equal two, and if you set it up to be different you'd just be talking about some operation other than addition on the naturals.

B: I wonder why arithmetic feels adequately explained to you, but electromagnetism doesn't? What would it feel like if arithmetic were as problematic to you as electromagnetism is?

A: ... I'd be asking why 1 + 1 = 2, I suppose. I wouldn't know the answers to questions that are intuitively obvious; or I wouldn't trust my intuition about them.

B: So you have intuitions about natural numbers, but not about electromagnetic fields?

A: I guess not.

B: Any ideas why not?

A: Well, nobody does! Arithmetic really is obvious — even birds can count, and they really aren't very bright.

B: Crows and parrots are. But you're right, it doesn't take advanced symbolic reasoning to count. Lots of animals do it instinctively, and presumably we do too. We have instincts that tell us that $$ and $$ put together would look like $$$$, and not like $$$$$ or $$$. It's difficult to imagine what it would even mean to question that.

A: So what are you saying? I don't look for explanations of arithmetic because ... my instincts don't allow me to?

B: Or, truths of arithmetic have been coded into your instincts by evolution, but truths of Maxwell's equations aren't.

A: But dude! How the fuck do you know they're truths? You're assuming just what I wanted to challenge in the first place! Stop petting the prince!

B: So now what you're after is "by what mechanism do we know that they're true" rather than "what mechanism makes the world operate that way"? You're satisfied with epistemology rather than metaphysics?

A: Well, it would be a start ...

B: Or, truths of arithmetic have been coded into your instincts by evolution, but truths of Maxwell's equations aren't.

A: But dude! How the fuck do you know they're truths?

B: Regarding arithmetic, I know they're truths because I've defined the underlying territory. I - collectively speaking - decided on axioms from which the whole tree of lemmata and corollaries spawns. Granted, I cannot fully track all the branches of the tree due to Goedel, there will be true statements that follow from my axioms that I'll never be able to trace back to the roots (which would be the proof), but the statements that I do prove I can rely upon to be true.

Why? Because it is I who made up the whole system, I don't need to match it to any external system of unknowns. Unlike my model of physics.

This seems to be taking down a straw man, and far from "challenging a central tenet of LW: reductionism", you perfectly describe it and expound on it, if a bit wordily. At least in my mind, it's very obvious that physical 'law' is a map-level concept. Physicists themselves have noticed that for a map-level concept, physical 'law' fits the territory so amazingly well, that they have written articles such as "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences"

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html

I don't claim that this post in particular challenges the consensus (at least, I don't intend to claim that, but I can see how my phrasing in the intro suggests it). It's mostly just setup. I think the LW consensus is probably closer to what I call "explanatory reductionism" at the end of this post, but attacking that position required that I make it clear how I think about laws of nature. The ultimate position I want to defend is that the only tenable reductionism is the extremely weak mereological kind. Surely this is different from the position generally advocated here.

That said, I don't think the position I'm attacking in this post is a straw man. As I point out, Paul Davies (hardly a fringe figure in physics) explicitly embraces it. He also says (in the linked excerpt) that "most physicists working on fundamental topics inhabit the prescriptive camp, even if they won't own up to it explicitly." In addition, I've seen nomic reductionism defended (and upvoted) on LW more than once. As an example, see some of the comments on this thread. Even people who would, if pressed, agree that laws are description often unconsciously infer things that only work if you think of laws as rules.

Do you think the points made in this post are common enough knowledge around here for the post to be of not much use?

I don't claim that this post in particular challenges the consensus

That would be the bit where you said "This is the first in a planned series of posts challenging a central tenet of the LessWrong consensus". When you say that you're challenging the consensus, it appears to the reader as though you're challenging the consensus.

Hence my parenthetical concession in the grandparent. But you're right, I should edit the post itself. Doing that right now.

When you say that you're challenging the consensus, it appears to the reader as though you're challenging the consensus.

I hereby nominate this for the 2012 Understatement Award.

A: But why are the dynamics of the electromagnetic field derived from Maxwell's Lagrangian rather than some other equation? And why does the path integral method work at all?

B: BECAUSE IT IS THE LAW.

What do you think of Max Tegmark's answer, that it's because universes with every possible (i.e., non-contradictory) set of laws of physics exist and we happen to be in one with electromagnetic dynamics derived from Maxwell's Lagrangian? (Or alternatively, every mathematical structure exist in a platonic sense and we happen to inhabit one that looks like this from the inside.)

I'm not sure if this can be called a LW consensus, but it has at least a large minority following here. One important reason is that this view seems to make it much easier to do decision theory, because it means that goals/values can be stated in terms of preferences about how mathematical structures turn out or unfold, instead of about "physical stuff". In particular, UDT was heavily influenced by Tegmark's ideas and there seems to be a consensus among people interested in decision theory here that UDT is a step in the right direction. If you're not already familiar with Tegmark's ideas, user ata wrote a post that can serve as an introduction.

This seems like a trivial idea, interesting mostly insofar as it dispels unnecessary mysteriousness of physical world, but not particularly meaningful or helpful otherwise. I'll try to summarize the context in which the idea of mathematical universe looks to me this way.

When abstract objects or ideas are thought about with mathematical precision, it turns out that they are best described by their "structure", which is a collection of properties that these things have (like commutativity of multiplication on a complex plane or connectedness of a sphere), rather than some kind of "reductionistic" recipe for assembling them. These properties imply other properties, and in many interesting cases, even based on a fixed initial definition it's possible to explore them in many possible ways, there is no restriction to a single direction in finding more properties (like new laws of number theory or geometry, as opposed to running a computer program to completion). At the same time, it's not possible, either in principle or in practice, to infer all interesting properties following from given defining properties that specify a sufficiently complicated structure, so there is perpetual logical uncertainty.

When two structures (or two "things" having these respective structures, described by them to some extent) share some of their properties in some sense, it's possible to infer new facts about one of the structures by observing the other. This way, for example, a computer program can reason about an infinite structure: if we know that a certain property stands or falls for the program and for the structure together, we can conclude that the property holds for the structure if its counterpart does for the program and so on. Also, setting up a structure that reflects properties of another one doesn't require knowing all defining properties of that structure, knowing only sufficiently accurate approximations to some of them may be sufficient to make useful inferences.

Physical world then can be seen as just another thing that, to the extent it can be rigorously thought about, is described by certain properties or principles, of which we know only some and not precisely. Thinking about the world involves setting up certain things (brains, computers, experimental apparatus, abstract structures, physical theories, etc.) that capture some of its structure (these act as "maps" of the world), and then inferring more properties (making "predictions") based on what they've managed to capture.

It doesn't seem like there is much more to say on this big picture level, and treating physical world the same way we treat other complicated things, such as sufficiently complicated mathematical structures, seems like a natural thing to do. Of course, the physical world is very special, it is this particular thing with these particular properties, and we happen to have evolved and live in it, but that doesn't seem fundamentally different from how the complex plane is another particular thing with its own properties. Also, like "physical" is not a meaningful distinction in the sense that it doesn't say anything specific about properties of the world, also "mathematical structure" is not a meaningful distinction in the same sense, and so insisting that the physical world "is a mathematical structure" doesn't seem meaningful. The physical world has structure, just as arithmetic has structure, but it doesn't seem like much more can be said on this level of description.

Of course, the physical world is very special, it is this particular thing with these particular properties, and we happen to have evolved and live in it, but that doesn't seem fundamentally different from how the complex plane is another particular thing with its own properties. Also, like "physical" is not a meaningful distinction in the sense that it doesn't say anything specific about properties of the world, also "mathematical structure" is not a meaningful distinction in the same sense, and so insisting that the physical world "is a mathematical structure" doesn't seem meaningful.

Every existing thing has a structure, but it is not clear that every logically consistent structure is the structure of an existing thing. The distinction between instantiated and uninstantiated mathematical structures is not obviously meaningless. The Tegmark hypothesis is that this distinction is meaningless. Since this meaninglessness is not obvious, the Tegmark hypothesis is nontrivial.

This seems like a trivial idea, interesting mostly insofar as it dispels unnecessary mysteriousness of physical world, but not particularly meaningful or helpful otherwise.

I can't find anything to disagree with after this quoted sentence, but "this seems like a trivial idea" certainly isn't something I'd say if someone else wrote the comment you're replying to. My guess is that you think "makes decision theory much easier" gives Tegmark too much credit because decision theory is far from solved, there are lots of hard problems left, and Tegmark's ideas represent only a small step, in a relative sense, compared to the overall difficulty of the project.

If my guess is right, I could offer the defense that it feels like a large amount of progress to me, in an absolute sense, but it might be a good idea to just rephrase that sentence to avoid giving the wrong impression. Or, let me know if I'm totally off base and you intended a different point entirely.

I'm aware of Tegmark's ideas, although I haven't thought about them much. I was not aware that they have a following on this site, probably because I haven't read much of the decision theory material on here. I'll read up on the idea and think about it more. My immediate uninformed inclination is skepticism, mainly on the grounds that I doubt the anthropics will work out in Tegmark's favor without some gerrymandering of the ensemble. Also, being able to conceive of a mathematical structure as an independently existing entity rather than a formal description of the structure of some material system seems to require a Gestalt switch that I haven't yet been able to attain.

First: upvoted.

On this descriptive conception of laws, the laws do not exist independently in some transcendent realm. They are not prior to the distribution of matter and energy. The laws are just descriptions of salient patterns in that distribution.

I'd also like to point out the flip side of the coin: by the same arguments, it doesn't make sense to talk about matter and energy separate from how it behaves - matter isn't some primordial grey blob, which, by its inaction, forces laws to be separate objects. What we'd call "matter" and "physical law" don't have to exist independently just because we have two words for them.

Note that whether things are separate or not is pretty map-level, but I think the above is necessitated if we accept the foundation of your post.

If the fundamental laws of physics are already lording it over all matter, there is no room for another locus of authority. However, the argument fizzles [...] if we regard laws as descriptive.

I'm confused why you would argue that physical law can't be some separate thing, "lording it over all matter," but still leave room in your picture for a really existing, similarly separate "locus of authority."

Specifically, there is no reason to declare one of these methods of compression to be more real than another. What would this even mean?

I think you're taking the lack of an immediate and obvious answer to a rhetorical question as more of an argument than it actually is. The satirical extreme being, of course, "I can't think of any counterexamples to P, therefore P." Would you like me to brainstorm you up a list of ways to compare descriptions of reality? (serious question, not rhetorical - I just don't want to spend the time if you don't need me to) It would begin "objects described by laws of physics have been observed to disobey laws of economics, but not vice versa."

I'd also like to point out the flip side of the coin: by the same arguments, it doesn't make sense to talk about matter and energy separate from how it behaves - matter isn't some primordial grey blob, which, by its inaction, forces laws to be separate objects. What we'd call "matter" and "physical law" don't have to exist independently just because we have two words for them.

Agreed. Was this just meant to be an observation or do you think it creates a problem for my view? If the latter, I don't see it yet.

I'm confused why you would argue that physical law can't be some separate thing, "lording it over all matter," but still leave room in your picture for a really existing, similarly separate "locus of authority."

That particular sentence was uttered from the perspective of a prescriptivist. If I believed that laws were rules, and I also believed that non-fundamental laws were real, then I would be committed to there being multiple loci of authority. But I don't believe that any laws are rules, so on my picture there are no loci of authority. I've added the words "On this assumption,..." in front of the sentence. Hopefully that makes my point less confusing.

I think you're taking the lack of an immediate and obvious answer to a rhetorical question as more of an argument than it actually is.

I intend to address the specific point you bring up in my post on explanatory reductionism. I do see your point about the rhetorical question, though. I've edited that section. Thanks!

"Arguments end where questions begin." How I wish I could remember where I read that sentence. It helped me reduce my use of rhetorical questions. Since then my writing is more clear (sometimes more clearly wrong I'm sure) and more friendly.

Instead of thinking of laws as rules that have an existence above and beyond the objects they govern, think of them as particularly concise and powerful descriptions of regular behavior.

The rest is commentary. I might emphasize the predictive utility of natural laws more than their descriptive utility.

"Arguments end where questions begin." How I wish I could remember where I read that sentence. It helped me reduce my use of rhetorical questions. Since then my writing is more clear (sometimes more clearly wrong I'm sure) and more friendly.

Thanks for this. It seems like very sound advice, and I'll endeavor to keep it in mind in the future.

I feel like there's a distinction being made I don't entirely understand. What's the difference between something describing behavior perfectly and determining behavior? If one person says (x-1)(x-2) determines x^2-3x+2, and another person says (x-1)(x-2) perfectly describes x^2-3x+2, do they disagree? Similarly, is there a meaningful way in which "the laws of physics govern reality" is false if the laws of physics perfectly describe reality?

(Our current understanding of the laws of physics is, of course, not complete, and the above paragraph should be assumed to refer a hypothetical set of laws of physics that do describe every phenomenon with perfect accuracy).

Maybe you can convince me that, in some deep philosophical sense, there is no substantive difference between determination and description of physical facts. But it is certainly true that rules and descriptions play very different roles in the social context, and that we are wired to think about and respond to rules and descriptions in very different ways. Conceiving of laws as rules activates all sorts of unconscious inferences stemming from the part of our brain that processes social rules, such as the intuitions that motivate nomic fundamentalism. So whether or not there is a genuine distinction between determination and description, there is certainly a cognitive difference in how we respond to those concepts.

B: BECAUSE IT IS THE LAW.

I cannot imagine a real physicist saying something like that. Sounds more like a bad physics teacher... or a good judge.

To me, that sounds like just about every physics teacher I've ever spoken to (for cases where I was aware that they were a physics teacher).

I remember once going around to look for them so that one of them could finally tell me where the frak gravity gets its power source. I got so many appeals to authority and confused or borked responses, and a surprisingly high number of password guesses (sometimes more than one guess per teacher - beat that!). One of them just pointed me to the equations and said "Shut up and plug the variables" (in retrospect, that was probably the best response of the lot).

Basically, if you want to study physics, don't come to Canada.

Yeah, that's sad. Here's a positive example from my school, which was in Russia. At some point in our "advanced" math classes we learned the concept of open and closed sets. The idea grew in my young mind and eventually I asked our physics teacher whether actual physical objects were more like closed sets (i.e. include points on their boundary), or more like open sets. That led to an amazingly deep discussion of what happens at the boundary of a physical object. My school was nice =)

My physics instructor in college didn't answer any questions like that. He barely lectured, in point of fact. He gave us a mountain of assignments, chosen by selecting from the state database of Physics problems by the criteria of being in the top X% (I don't recall the exact number; I'm inclined to think 5) of questions gotten wrong; many of the problems were -way- beyond the scope of the book we were nominally learning from. It took me longer to complete two weeks' worth of assignments than it took me to do the homework for every other class throughout the entire semester, including research papers.

That was the whole of the class. It was the most effective class I have ever taken. There were a few problems where the state database had the wrong formula for calculating solutions (which explains how -they- got into the "hardest problem" set; nobody could ever get them right); I remember one in particular was off by a multiplicative factor of 4pi. Those were quite possibly the absolute best learning experiences; not only did you have to solve the problem, you had to -understand- it, on a very deep level, in order to first realize that they, not you, are wrong, and then figure out exactly why their solution was wrong.

That is amazingly sad and we should use that as a test question on some SPARC unit somewhere.

I remember once going around to look for them so that one of them could finally tell me where the frak gravity gets its power source.

I can't parse the question.

Basically, if you want to study physics, don't come to Canada.

There are plenty of great physicists in Canada.

I remember once going around to look for them so that one of them could finally tell me where the frak gravity gets its power source.

I can't parse the question.

This has to be seen from a (earlyhighschool student)'s perspective, a student that is suffering through the Forces, Mechanical Motion and Electromagnetism introductory courses to physics.

There are plenty of great physicists in Canada.

Physicist =/= Physics teacher.

I made no significant statement about canadian physicists. Only two of the physics teachers I spoke to/of were actually university-level physics teachers, and only one of which was an actual physicist. After all, it's pretty hard for a mere compulsory-ed student to even get an email reply from a physicist on something so obviously below their status.

If I were an economist, I wouldn't be interested (at least not qua economist) in deductive systems that talked about quarks and leptons. I would be interested in deductive systems that talked about prices and demand. The best system for this coarser-grained vocabulary will give us the laws of economics, distinct from the laws of physics.

There's this difference between economics and physics. The axioms of economics don't come close to completely explaining prices and demand, and we don't expect them to, even in principle. It would be a miracle if they did: finding coarse-grained descriptions at different levels of abstraction that are exceptionless would be miraculous.

We want a complete physics; we know we can't have a complete economics. The expectation that physics can be complete reflects an assumption that we can cut physical reality at its seams, but we have no similar expectation for economics. Physical descriptions are more than mere descriptions because we expect a finite number of them to describe the (physical) universe; we don't expect axiomatized economics to describe the coarse grain of the economics universe, only what's really a small part.

Accusing realists about physical laws as conceiving of them as "pushing matter around" is to substitute a metaphorical description of the philosophical landscape for an actual analysis. Here's an analysis. On a realist view--that is, laws are "rules"--you expect a finite number of axioms to be exhaustive. This is what makes them like laws--their finite number. On the other hand, descriptions are infinite in their variety. What makes the laws of physics "real" is that, if they work as supposed, they describe the structure of matter. That we see matter as having a structure leads us to expect a finite number of principles to describe that structure. We don't think that way about ordinary descriptions or the "laws" of the "special sciences." There, we take what we can get, and don't expect exhaustiveness.

Upvoted; I like where (I think) this is going.

To your distinction between mereological and nomic reductionism, I would add a third kind of reductionism ("ontic reductionism" would be a good name) that goes beyond the mereological claim, to say that the only things that really exist are the entities of fundamental physics. In this view, quarks/strings/wavefunctions or whatever is posited in the ultimate theory are real, but high-level entities like trees and people are only "real": they are certain combinations of fundamental entities that we signal out for a convenient description.

I'd say that trees and quarks are both real, without qualification, and that the concepts of trees and quarks are part of maps we make, and that relations like "reducible to", more fundamental than", etc, all speak about maps and not territory. So to say stuff like "only quarks really exist" is a map-territory confusion, and what we ought to say is that the map involving quarks is more comprehensive, accurate, universally applicable, etc, that the map involving trees.

(It bugged me to no end in the "Reductionism" chapter of HPMOR that Harry seems to make this mistake, confusing his timeless quantum mechanics map with reality itself.)

I'm not sure this dichotomy you've set up is quite so binary. Essentially, I agree with metaphysicist's comment (see also rocurley's) -- a fundamental set of laws is descriptive, but it's also more -- but I'd like to add to it.

It's well accepted that physical laws are descriptive, in the sense that there can be multiple equivalent descriptions (consider all the different descriptions of classical mechanics). On the other hand, we expect that it is possible to find a set of laws which can be called "fundamental", and that these are not just descriptive in the ways economic laws are, in two ways. Firstly, we expect these laws to be complete, and, secondly, actually true rather than merely approximate, so that any deviations we see are due to errors in our measurement, rather than a need to refine the laws we'fe found. Furthermore, we expect it is possible to find such a set of laws which is finite.

Note that there is no uniqueness condition here, and in that sense the laws are descriptive. Note also that the label "fundamental" only applies to sets of laws, not individual ones (although you could certainly have a fundamental singleton -- just 'and' them all together!). When you have multiple equivalent descriptions, some of which may not include certain laws, it's a little hard to sensibly speak of such-and-such a law causing a certain interaction (except as a manner of speaking).

There are other ways in which this does not quite work. For one thing, actually thinking "prescriptively" hardly works in a universe where there's no universal notion of "time". Relativity forces us to think in a block-universe fashion[0]. Honestly, I'd say just having continuous time rules out a simple prescriptive idea, because then you have to reify velocity or other derivatives, and also because solutions to differential equations are not always unique! The equations that actually come up in the fundamental laws might have unique solutions, but that's a descriptive condition.

But on the other hand, while we don't expect a fundamental set of laws to be prescriptive in that sense, we do still expect them to be (probabilistically / quantum / mixed-state) deterministic, in the sense that the (wavefunction of / density matrix of the) present (with respect to any fixed observer) determines the future. Note that this is purely a descriptive condition; we don't insist that the laws somehow reach in and cause the future, just that they're sufficient to uniquely constrain it. But it is, I suppose, a descriptive condition with some prescriptive flavor. And note that it requires a set of laws to be fundamental in the senses above -- you can't have a sensible determinism (even in the broad sense above) without actual truth; and if a set of laws is enough to uniquely constrain the future, then it's necessarily complete.

So in actuality what we expect of a fundamental laws is descriptive rather than prescriptive, but it's not the bare descriptivism of economic laws, e.g.; it's a complete and truthful description. And when you take a block-universe point of view[0], or rocurley's point of view, this is the only sensible way to interpret the notion of a prescriptive set of laws in the first place, so in that sense it can be called "prescriptive" while also being descriptive, and while not taking the ridiculous prescriptive view torn apart in the post.

[0]Tangent: Eliezer may insist on "timelessness", but so far as I'm concerned the idea is near-nonsensical. It's correct to the extent that it overlaps with the block-universe idea, which in terms of how it describes how you should think about time is quite a lot. Time is not ontologically special, etc. (Although it is physically special, because, you know, +1 +1 +1 -1. And the equations are different.) But insisting that actually it's just a consequence of other things is -- well, where is this linear ordering coming from, and why should it be real-valued, and how can you possibly account for Lorentz-invariance, and etc.? I'd also like to take a moment to point out that while it's perhaps better to think of laws as describing[1] a relation between past and future, that doesn't mean it's wrong, as suggested in HMPOR, to think of them as describing[1] how things change over time, because these mean the same thing! Similarly, describing how things in one place are different from things in another place is describing how things change over space, and describing how hot things are different from cold things is describing how things change over temperature; time isn't ontologically special. The only way it's wrong to think of things changing over time is if the only way you can read that is as some ontologically special thing where the future replaces the past or something equally ridiculous. The block-universe view provides a perfectly good way of thinking about time, without having problems with physics.
[1]The original wording was "enforcing a relation", and "changing things over time", rather than a descriptive wording; but that was describing a magic wand rather than physical laws, so maybe that was appropriate. Although it's not clear to me that there's a real difference.

In a scientific culture immersed in theism, it was unproblematic, even natural, to think of physical laws as rules.

It wasn't just theism that made talk of natural law seem warranted. Many of the pioneers of the scientific revolution (as much as there was such a thing) were, in fact, lawyers.

Posts written by people exercising the thought processes you are exercising are the kind of posts I am most interested in reading on LessWrong, as a category. However, the specific content of this post (possibly in part because it is an introduction) did not make me super interested in this post.

I do think that this is exactly the sort of thing that Main needs more of.

"Here is an accurate map of the city. To get from this location to this location, follow these roads"

"Why those roads and not the highway?"

"Because the highway doesn't go anywhere near the start or end point of the proposed journey."

"Why is that?"

"The highway is located at the place indicated by the blue line. The start point and end point are represented by these symbols. The blue line never gets closer to either of the symbols than they are to each other."

"But why is the blue line there instead of somewhere else? And why are those symbols there instead of closer to the line?"

"Because the map is accurate to reality"

If the laws are accurate, then they don't determine anything, they describe things. I don't know why two positively charged blocks of metal repel, but I do know that they do. Why it is the case that the universe exists as it does is a question that cannot be answered from within the universe.

A: But why are the dynamics of the electromagnetic field derived from Maxwell's Lagrangian rather than some other equation? And why does the path integral method work at all?

The way I usually answer such questions is “If I knew, I'd have a friggin' Nobel Prize!”

I haven't put my finger on it exactly, but I am somewhat concerned that this post is leading us to argue about the meanings of words, whilst thinking that we are doing something else.

What can we really say about the world? What we ought to be doing is almost mathematically defined now. We have observations of various kinds, Bayes' theorem, and our prior. The prior ought really to start off as a description of our state of initial ignorance, and Bayes' theorem describes exactly how that initial state of ignorance should be updated as we see further observations.

Being ordinary human beings, we follow this recipe badly. We find collecting far too much data easier than extracting the last drop of meaning from each bit, so we tend to do that. We also need to use our observations to predict the future, which we ought to do by extrapolating what we have in the most probable way.

Having done this, we have discovered that there's an amazing and notable contrast between the enormous volume of data we have collected about the universe, and the comparatively tiny set of rules which appear to summarise it.

There is quite a lot of discussion about the difference between fundamental and non-fundamental laws. This is rather like arguing in arithmetic about whether addition or multiplication are more fundamental - who cares - the notable factor is that the overall system is highly compressible, and part of that compression process allows you to omit any explicit stating of many aspects of the system. The rules that are still fairly explicitly stated in the compressed version tend to be considered the 'fundamental' ones, and the ones that get left out, non-fundamental.

You are of course right in saying that the universe often kind of simulates other rule systems within its fundamental one.

But I am suspicious that beyond that, this article is about words, not the nature of reality.

The issue is not whether there are "laws", the issue is whether there are causes. A descriptive approach to physics amounts to saying "wherever you see A, you also see B". But is there a reason why B always accompanies A? If there is no reason, then the regularities of reality are just one big coincidence. If there is a reason, the next question is, is causality the reason? Is B caused to accompany A? If the answer is yes, there are causes, then we have to worry about what a cause is. If the answer is no, there are no causes, then we have to come up with "non-causal explanations" for the regularities of reality, which is ontologically imaginative but quite mysterious.

Yes, this is a question I intend to address. As I say at the end of the post:

Also, even if one denies that the laws of physics themselves are pushing matter around, one can still believe that all the actual pushing and pulling there is, all the causal action, is described by the laws of physics, and that the non-fundamental laws do not describe genuine causal relations. We could call this kind of view causal reductionism.

I have to say, though, I don't see how saying "causality" is supposed to explain the existence of regularity. It seems like the same sort of thing as the "BECAUSE IT IS THE LAW" move I criticize in this post. If someone asks "Why do like charges always repel one another?" and you respond with something like "Because there is a causal relationship which forces the charges apart" have you done anything other than restate the existence of the regularity with some new words that sound satisfying? I guess you have also conveyed the further information that the regularity is robust under interventions, but that doesn't seem to be an explanation for why the regularity holds in the first place.

ETA: This comment might clarify what I think about the sort of issue you raise.

I'm reading an introduction to perspectives on free will for an introductory philosophy course, which contains a lot of discussion of determinism. I found this article immensely clarifying as an accompaniment.

From the free will thing:

Assuming determinism, the laws of physics completely determine what happens in the universe, including all of your actions. So in principle, everything you do could have been predicted before you were even born. It seems that, if this is true, you are wrong to suppose that you are sometimes able to choose between different options. There’s only ever been one path through life open to you.

But, from the perspective of this post, this quote says nothing more than that there is a concise way of describing both the present and the future, without having to enumerate all the facts about each. Even if there were no deterministic laws, there would still be only one thing that actually happens; it would just not have such a concise description.

(I don't actually know who wrote the free will introduction or where to find it)

I think this is exactly right. Arguments that physical determinism is incompatible with free will usually assume that your behavior is controlled by physical law, so it cannot also be controlled by you: "The laws of nature (in conjunction with the initial conditions of the universe) made you raise your hand, so how could it be a free choice?" But this sort of argument relies on thinking of laws as somehow controlling physical systems, and this is wrong. While it is entirely accurate to think of the relationship between certain aspects of your mental state and your muscular activity as one of control, it is inaccurate to think of the relationship between the laws of nature and your muscular activity as one of control. You control your actions, the laws don't.