Balanced approaches to hanging with phyglike figures of awesomeness!

EDIT: Oops! Excuse my language. What I really meant to talk about was phyg.

This started out as a comment responding to this article about overcompensating for worshippy behavior by not showing admiration for anyone.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, partly because I participate in a number of internet communities that sprout up around a central person and I definitely feel the pull toward fangirling (such as this community! I admit it!), but other times I think I overcompensate and don't fangirl enough when the person is actually pretty cool. I also have a tiny brother (13) and he's operating in that phyg mentality right now: the moment you tell him that you don't *really* want to watch videos by his favorite Youtuber because you (gasp!) don't find them very funny, he takes it as a personal attack and starts arguing away every single flaw you bring up. (Ray William Johnson is perfect in every way!!) So I've been trying to come up with a good procedure for reacting to people you admire without under/overcompensating for the drive to worship these celebrities.

Here are some stuff I've tried to do

  1. Try to avoid accidentally caching the name of the community into your identity -- this will make criticism of the central celebrity feel less like a personal attack. I try not to be an 'X fan' or a Whovian or a part of anyone's Nation. I'm just a person that occasionally consumes media X. Or regularly consumes media X. Or sometimes gets addicted to media X. Media X is something I do and community X is something I participate in. That is where I stand with respect to media X and the rest of the world.
  2. Once you start trying to be aware of identity issues, you can spot which celebrities actively avoid being the center of a community of people who identify with them and which celebrities do things to intentionally suck you in. I don't think that's a good enough reason to conclude they're a phyg leader because there's a pretty big gap between fans who want your autograph and a mindless drone army, but I feel like it's useful to be aware of.
  3. Then, once you're just a person who consumes media X with some frequency, you can try to formulate precisely why you like media X, along with any flaws you feel like media X has, and then make a list. You can remind yourself that celebrity X lives in a pretty small blob of thingspace by reminding yourself of all the things that aren't on your list. For example, I can think Obama is a 'reasonably competent' president. I sure as hell don't know how to be a president! But I have very little evidence to think that he is also a nice person. Or fun to hang out with. Or good at sports/math/music/science/ethics. Or that he's going to save the world. This lets you safely go around saying that you admire these properties of media X, which is not a fangirly thing to say at all. 
  4. Once you make the list, you can sorta feel the halo effect happen! It's a lot harder to reject some of those than others! One thought experiment is good-looking actors/celebrities that you like in movies that are also being smart or doing something good for the world. (I really want to think JGL is also a nice person. But all I know is he was good in that one movie ...)
  5. The list also lets you put your likes in context with respect to value. For example, I appreciate that the SourceFed team admitted when they didn't know certain facts during the presidential election. But that's *less* valuable than someone who does have facts and sources, though definitely better than someone shamelessly making stuff up.

The original article asks:

So rather than guess any further, I'm going to turn this over to my readers.  I'm hoping in particular that someone used to feel this way—shutting down an impulse to praise someone else highly, or feeling that it was cultish to praise someone else highly—and then had some kind of epiphany after which it felt, not allowed, but rather, quite normal.

Until I started going through this process with the media I consume, I did feel pretty sketchy expressing admiration for things. Now I feel like I have pretty good upper and lower bounds on my admiration for things, so I feel oriented when people try to either accuse me of being a fangirl or accuse the things I like of sucking. I'm permitted to like stuff that sucks in some dimensions or doesn't address others! Not everything I like has to be flawless!

But this leads me to another question. Is there more stuff to be done?!  This only works as well as individual people can poke around in their own brains and be honest with themselves. Is there a way to push back at internet mini-celebrities and get them to actively resist becoming a phyg? That is, should something be done about (2)? Or is this an individual 'responsibility' and not really a community issue? Or is it part of the bigger push to teach application of rationality to everything and therefore not something to focus on?

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My current strategy is to become more awesome to close the awesomeness gap.

This has worked for me more than once; I recommend it.

I'm not convinced that works on all axes. =]

For example, I probably have to accept the fact that I will never be an awesome contortionist. =/ Trying would just be setting me up for disappointment. Also, pain.

But you can still be an awesome [some other thing]. I think it's easier not to fall into the worst failure modes when dealing with awesome people if you're an awesome person, even if the thing you're awesome at is not the thing they're awesome at. There's also an adjustment in attitude related to closing the awesomeness gap, which is to view awesome people as Bayesian evidence about how awesome it's possible for humans to be instead of as threats to your awesomeness.

I think you're talking about a slightly different failure mode than what I have in mind.

Story: I've never had any musical training, but when I was in middle school I had two friends that were musicians, and one was all about the classical music and she was in band, etc, while the other dude is a death metal drummer. And every time I had any opinion on any piece of music at all, they would just tear into it and tell me that it was all crap and that I was wrong. And because they were both musicians, and I wasn't devoted to any of these things I liked, I sorta had to admit that they probably had more expertise about this music stuff than I did and therefore probably knew what they were talking about.

But, oddly enough, this didn't stop me from ... liking some music? Who knew, right? But the result is that to this day I am literally afraid to tell anyone about my music preferences because I feel like I'm not allowed to have any because I'm not an actual musician. Yet when I query my own brain about why I like something, there's some things that, for example, have brilliant, awesome lyrics (which I have more "expertise" in) and some that my brain just says "eh? iono!" and still likes the thing.

So one solution is to go out and take a ton of musical classes and find out exactly what's going on and develop snobbish music tastes so that I can hold my own with these people. But if I have other stuff to do, another option is to accept that there's just going to be some stuff that I like for the "eh iono" reason and that's okay. And I don't have to defend it from anyone! So even if I'm trying to maximize awesome along some axes, I can still participate and experience awesome along others. =]

*dances*

This doesn't seem very related to the content of the OP. You don't mention having a fangirl reaction to either of your friends (who, by the way, sound like bad friends). It sounds like you just didn't distinguish between the folowing phenomena:

  • A domain expert has a lot of knowledge about her domain, and is therefore better at making anticipation-controlling statements about it than non-domain experts.
  • A domain expert has preferences about parts of her domain that disagree with the preferences of non-domain experts for various reasons.

That is, I think it's reasonable to hypothesize that musicians have very different preferences about music than non-musicians for various reasons, e.g. because musical training modifies how a musician experiences music or because of tribalism and identity issues. For example, when a classical musician tells you that rap music is a piece of crap, I don't think they're making an anticipation-controlling statement; they're cheering for the classical music team. They may also be making a statement about their own preferences, which are probably informed by their training and don't need to impinge on your preferences.

Exactly! There was tribalism/identity mixed up in their expertise for both of them! But I was only doing step 1 from the list but none of the others. So I had no tribe on my side to back me up against the strength of theirs, which put me in this weird, vulnerable position that led me to the flawed conclusion that I wasn't allowed to hang out in the music axis of thingspace at all. But, when you do the other steps, it's just things you put into your ears, and compared to all the other things out there in the world to do, it's nothing to really to fight over or get freaked out by. "You're judging me for things I put into my ears? Really?"

Also, I feel like it's pretty common to have bad friends in middle school. =/

Right, but what does this have to do with worship? It doesn't sound like you felt any temptation to worship your friends.

Ohh! Yeah, it was a reply to your "closing the awesomeness gap" comment. Dealing with awesome people without having to close the awesomeness gap between us? Especially people that have a mixture of awesomeness AND tribalism issues going on. ^_^

phyg

I regret starting that.

I wrote a post called Our Cult is not Exclusive Enough, because it isn't, and it would be better if more of us were more fully indoctrinated. Somehow I missed the irony in changing my words to make LW more palatable to outsiders in a post about how I wish there were less outsiders around.

I have accepted the truth. Less wrong is a cult. I am a cult organizer. Deal with it.

As for your actual article, the approach seems good. beware of other optimizing your brother. I like your list of things to do.

There's a difference between holding high standards for newcomers who want to become community members, and discouraging new people from joining the community. If we flip legitimate heuristics for filtering cranks from reasonable thinkers, we're liable to filter out people who would be valuable community members. I don't think we want that.

Not using the word "cult" is not a rule in this forum, never has been (and btw nor would I like it to ever so become).

But darn if there hasn't been a lot of social pressure to use the ROT13'd "phyg" sitewide, so that LW is not linked to the term "cult" in web searches. In any case, my question was tongue-in-cheek and kinda snarky. I'm aware there was never any sort of official policy preventing it.

I regret prompting you to change your words rather than removing them entirely.

I still think it's inappropriate use of the term.

That's definitely a good point. I mostly bring up this stuff when he tries to get me to watch his favorite videos, because he gets really offended when I politely refuse to watch videos I don't expect to appreciate.

I think there's nothing wrong with indoctrination materials? It helps to have words that mean the same thing that everyone can use to understand each other!

I am more worried about turning into ... rock band groupies? Like the "omg omg omg omg omg omg omg he looked at me!!" effect. While that's probably normal to some degree, I think that's what eventually turns into the halo effect and legitimate admiration leaks into areas where it doesn't belong.

Less wrong is a cult. I am a cult organizer. Deal with it.

I think there's nothing wrong with indoctrination materials? It helps to have words that mean the same thing that everyone can use to understand each other!

Less Wrong already has a "Google problem" with the phyg word. Would you mind typing "phyg" instead?

Amazing. I keep telling you, your choices are mainstream academia or Objectivism.

Two short comments from the flip side: how (relatively) famous people handle attention.

First: I recently went to a lecture where everyone was greeted at the door by a senior regional political figure. A handshake and a hello said 'yes, that's me' and then came a pat on the back. In the moment of the pat I thought 'my, that's being really accessible.' Then I saw the function of the pat was 'okay, you're done now, keep moving.' The idea was full fame but for a limited time.

Second: I am a long-time writer under another name for the Church of the SubGenius. At SubGenius events around the world I am a famous guy... under another name. My day to day life has nearly no fame content. Noting how the fame switch can be turned on and off, I don't get overly worked up when I meet famous people. Just worked up enough.

Ohh, this is awesome! What kind of attention do you get? Do you get asked for autographs? Do you ever get attention that feels really irrelevant to the 'reason' you're famous?

Kind words and autograph requests and questions are much appreciated and inspire me to write more. The off-kilter attention is when people stare and do not approach. After the devival I get on an airplane, come home and it's off like a bedside lamp. Back to Clark Kent mode.

I think that writing phyg instead of cult is actually cultish.

It's a combination of clique jargon and a attempt to present a distorted image of the community by disonestly manipulating the Google rank. These are the sort of things you'd expect from a cult.

Don't worry too much. Eventually, search engines will learn "phyg" as a synonym for "cult". The more we talk about it, the faster that will happen.

If manipulating Google rank is mark of cultishness, then by fixing the HTML tags on my homepage I have already become a new L Ron Hubbard.

Seriously, most people and organizations care about their images. We live among other people; our social images matter. We can take that as a small evidence for cultism, or as a greater evidence for non-autism.

I think I disagree with EY's conclusion in the essay you linked to. Given scary research findings related to status differences (also potentially relevant if "high-status person's opinion" could act as an effective stand-in for "majority opinion"), I think there are good epistemological reasons to try to treat everyone as an equal by default. (BTW, the relatively large status differences between LW users worry me some. I read LW for years before noticing status-related biases in my thinking and attempting to fix them.)

Acknowledging someone's long list of accomplishments and perceiving them as higher status seem to me like different brain phenomena, in the same way saying "Oh, that's going to make it hard for me to accomplish my goal" and feeling discouraged are different brain phenomena (in other words, emotions and declarative thoughts don't have to be in perfect correspondence). Yes, it's good to reinforce people for doing useful things, but acting like a fanboy/fangirl is not the only way to reinforce someone.

Edit: Reply to EY's essay:

  • Yes, having people show off how willing they are to disagree with you is problematic for everyone involved. Suggestion: Try to make yourself less imposing so disagreeing or agreeing with you is less of a big deal. (BTW, I think EY is getting better at this, good for him.)

  • In the library story, all of the problems you describe are problems that arise from status differences. When there's a high-status person around, it becomes difficult to define yourself except in terms of whether you agree or disagree with them. (Insert evolutionary psychology speculation here.) Like many social problems, status differences are the product of the behavior of both parties in the interaction, and therefore the problem can be attacked from both ends.

  • Overall, reluctance to acquiesce to high-status people among the "our kind" crowd is a good thing, because it pushes against certain status and conformity-related failure modes. (See above links. Yes, if Less Wrong were an army platoon it might be a bad thing, but we're not.) I think it's probably better to try to express this reluctance through casual egalitarianism than deliberate rebellion, though.

Yeah, I definitely agree with your first point. EY writes "and then from talking to this person for 30 seconds I determined that they were not worth listening to" which makes me terrified and therefore much less likely to make sense in those initial 30 seconds if I were confronted with ... him. (That link was one of the more forgiving contexts.)

But I think I was trying to push for a boring, paperwork evaluation of where that status came from. In some cases, you might examine it and decide you should actually trust the person's expertise on some matter. But not all matters everywhere ever and no they can't also sign your arm/face.

I think the problem is not so much awesomeness but the cases where awesomeness is over estimated by most attendees, such as when people specifically want to hang out with figures of awesomeness and especially when they want to have some figure of awesomeness that only they are smart enough / rational enough / etc. to see as awesome.

Once you start trying to be aware of identity issues, you can spot which celebrities actively avoid being the center of a community of people who identify with them and which celebrities do things to intentionally suck you in. I don't think that's a good enough reason to conclude they're a phyg leader because there's a pretty big gap between fans who want your autograph and a mindless drone army, but I feel like it's useful to be aware of.

There's some discussion of avoiding the creation of fan behavior here (mostly from the point of view of people like Eliezer who would rather have community members rather than adoring fans).

I read some of these Chuck Norris-style facts and thought they were hilarious, but was also really carefully trying to check myself to make sure I didn't ... believe one? Accidentally buy a t-shirt?

What I was mainly wondering is what to do about non-rationality-focused communities whose central people do encourage fan behavior in limited but non-thoughtful, non-zero ways. You can't really ... criticize them, because existing fans will jump to defend them. I was thinking of maybe starting an unbiased phyg-ishness index computed in a published way?