Have you ever lived under obedience? This is often considered a prerequisite for holding command of e.g. a monastery.

Dragon Army: Theory & Charter (30min read)

Author's note: This IS a rationality post (specifically, theorizing on group rationality and autocracy/authoritarianism), but the content is quite cunningly disguised beneath a lot of meandering about the surface details of a group house charter.  If you're not at least hypothetically interested in reading about the workings of an unusual group house full of rationalists in Berkeley, you can stop here.  


Section 0 of 3: Preamble

Purpose of post:  Threefold.  First, a lot of rationalists live in group houses, and I believe I have some interesting models and perspectives, and I want to make my thinking available to anyone else who's interested in skimming through it for Things To Steal.  Second, since my initial proposal to found a house, I've noticed a significant amount of well-meaning pushback and concern à la have you noticed the skulls? and it's entirely unfair for me to expect that to stop unless I make my skull-noticing evident.  Third, some nonzero number of humans are gonna need to sign the final version of this charter if the house is to come into existence, and it has to be viewable somewhere.  I figured the best place was somewhere that impartial clear thinkers could weigh in (flattery).

What is Dragon Army [Barracks]?  It's a high-commitment, high-standards, high-investment group house model with centralized leadership and an up-or-out participation norm, designed to a) improve its members and b) actually accomplish medium-to-large scale tasks requiring long-term coordination.  Tongue-in-cheek referred to as the "fascist/authoritarian take on rationalist housing," which has no doubt contributed to my being vulnerable to strawmanning but was nevertheless the correct joke to be making, lest people misunderstand what they were signing up for.  Aesthetically modeled after Dragon Army from Ender's Game (not HPMOR), with a touch of Paper Street Soap Company thrown in, with Duncan Sabien in the role of Ender/Tyler and Eli Tyre in the role of Bean/The Narrator.

Why?  Current group housing/attempts at group rationality and community-supported leveling up seem to me to be falling short in a number of ways.  First, there's not enough stuff actually happening in them (i.e. to the extent people are growing and improving and accomplishing ambitious projects, it's largely within their professional orgs or fueled by unusually agenty individuals, and not by leveraging the low-hanging fruit available in our house environments).  Second, even the group houses seem to be plagued by the same sense of unanchored abandoned loneliness that's hitting the rationalist community specifically and the millennial generation more generally.  There are a bunch of competitors for "third," but for now we can leave it at that.

"You are who you practice being."


Section 1 of 3: Underlying models

The following will be meandering and long-winded; apologies in advance.  In short, both the house's proposed aesthetic and the impulse to found it in the first place were not well-reasoned from first principles—rather, they emerged from a set of System 1 intuitions which have proven sound/trustworthy in multiple arenas and which are based on experience in a variety of domains.  This section is an attempt to unpack and explain those intuitions post-hoc, by holding plausible explanations up against felt senses and checking to see what resonates.

Problem 1: Pendulums

This one's first because it informs and underlies a lot of my other assumptions.  Essentially, the claim here is that most social progress can be modeled as a pendulum oscillating decreasingly far from an ideal.  The society is "stuck" at one point, realizes that there's something wrong about that point (e.g. that maybe we shouldn't be forcing people to live out their entire lives in marriages that they entered into with imperfect information when they were like sixteen), and then moves to correct that specific problem, often breaking some other Chesterton's fence in the process.


For example, my experience leads me to put a lot of confidence behind the claim that we've traded "a lot of people trapped in marriages that are net bad for them" for "a lot of people who never reap the benefits of what would've been a strongly net-positive marriage, because it ended too easily too early on."  The latter problem is clearly smaller, and is probably a better problem to have as an individual, but it's nevertheless clear (to me, anyway) that the loosening of the absoluteness of marriage had negative effects in addition to its positive ones.

Proposed solution: Rather than choosing between absolutes, integrate.  For example, I have two close colleagues/allies who share millennials' default skepticism of lifelong marriage, but they also are skeptical that a commitment-free lifestyle is costlessly good.  So they've decided to do handfasting, in which they're fully committed for a year and a day at a time, and there's a known period of time for asking the question "should we stick together for another round?"

In this way, I posit, you can get the strengths of the old socially evolved norm which stood the test of time, while also avoiding the majority of its known failure modes.  Sort of like building a gate into the Chesterton's fence, instead of knocking it down—do the old thing in time-boxed iterations with regular strategic check-ins, rather than assuming you can invent a new thing from whole cloth.

Caveat/skull: Of course, the assumption here is that the Old Way Of Doing Things is not a slippery slope trap, and that you can in fact avoid the failure modes simply by trying.  And there are plenty of examples of that not working, which is why Taking Time-Boxed Experiments And Strategic Check-Ins Seriously is a must.  In particular, when attempting to strike such a balance, all parties must have common knowledge agreement about which side of the ideal to err toward (e.g. innocents in prison, or guilty parties walking free?).

 

Problem 2: The Unpleasant Valley

As far as I can tell, it's pretty uncontroversial to claim that humans are systems with a lot of inertia.  Status quo bias is well researched, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, most people fail at resolutions, etc.

I have some unqualified speculation regarding what's going on under the hood.  For one, I suspect that you'll often find humans behaving pretty much as an effort- and energy-conserving algorithm would behave.  People have optimized their most known and familiar processes at least somewhat, which means that it requires less oomph to just keep doing what you're doing than to cobble together a new system.  For another, I think hyperbolic discounting gets way too little credit/attention, and is a major factor in knocking people off the wagon when they're trying to forego local behaviors that are known to be intrinsically rewarding for local behaviors that add up to long-term cumulative gain.

But in short, I think the picture of "I'm going to try something new, eh?" often looks like this:


... with an "unpleasant valley" some time after the start point.  Think about the cold feet you get after the "honeymoon period" has worn off, or the desires and opinions of a military recruit in the second week of a six-week boot camp, or the frustration that emerges two months into a new diet/exercise regime, or your second year of being forced to take piano lessons.

The problem is, people never make it to the third year, where they're actually good at piano, and start reaping the benefits, and their System 1 updates to yeah, okay, this is in fact worth it.  Or rather, they sometimes make it, if there are strong supportive structures to get them across the unpleasant valley (e.g. in a military bootcamp, they just ... make you keep going).  But left to our own devices, we'll often get halfway through an experiment and just ... stop, without ever finding out what the far side is actually like.

Proposed solution: Make experiments "unquittable."  The idea here is that (ideally) one would not enter into a new experiment unless a) one were highly confident that one could absorb the costs, if things go badly, and b) one were reasonably confident that there was an Actually Good Thing waiting at the finish line.  If (big if) we take those as a given, then it should be safe to, in essence, "lock oneself in," via any number of commitment mechanisms.  Or, to put it in other words: "Medium-Term Future Me is going to lose perspective and want to give up because of being unable to see past short-term unpleasantness to the juicy, long-term goal?  Fine, then—Medium-Term Future Me doesn't get a vote."  Instead, Post-Experiment Future Me gets the vote, including getting to update heuristics on which-kinds-of-experiments-are-worth-entering.

Caveat/skull: People who are bad at self-modeling end up foolishly locking themselves into things that are higher-cost or lower-EV than they thought, and getting burned; black swans and tail risk ends up making even good bets turn out very very badly; we really should've built in an ejector seat.  This risk can be mostly ameliorated by starting small and giving people a chance to calibrate—you don't make white belts try to punch through concrete blocks, you make them punch soft, pillowy targets first.

And, of course, you do build in an ejector seat.  See next.

 

Problem 3: Saving Face

If any of you have been to a martial arts academy in the United States, you're probably familiar with the norm whereby a tardy student purchases entry into the class by first doing some pushups.  The standard explanation here is that the student is doing the pushups not as a punishment, but rather as a sign of respect for the instructor, the other students, and the academy as a whole.

I posit that what's actually going on includes that, but is somewhat more subtle/complex.  I think the real benefit of the pushup system is that it closes the loop.  

Imagine you're a ten year old kid, and your parent picked you up late from school, and you're stuck in traffic on your way to the dojo.  You're sitting there, jittering, wondering whether you're going to get yelled at, wondering whether the master or the other students will think you're lazy, imagining stuttering as you try to explain that it wasn't your fault—

Nope, none of that.  Because it's already clearly established that if you fail to show up on time, you do some pushups, and then it's over.  Done.  Finished.  Like somebody sneezed and somebody else said "bless you," and now we can all move on with our lives.  Doing the pushups creates common knowledge around the questions "does this person know what they did wrong?" and "do we still have faith in their core character?"  You take your lumps, everyone sees you taking your lumps, and there's no dangling suspicion that you were just being lazy, or that other people are secretly judging you.  You've paid the price in public, and everyone knows it, and this is a good thing.

Proposed solution: This is a solution without a concrete problem, since I haven't yet actually outlined the specific commitments a Dragon has to make (regarding things like showing up on time, participating in group activities, and making personal progress).  But in essence, the solution is this: you have to build into your system from the beginning a set of ways-to-regain-face.  Ways to hit the ejector seat on an experiment that's going screwy without losing all social standing; ways to absorb the occasional misstep or failure-to-adequately-plan; ways to be less-than-perfect and still maintain the integrity of a system that's geared toward focusing everyone on perfection.  In short, people have to know (and others have to know that they know, and they have to know that others know that they know) exactly how to make amends to the social fabric, in cases where things go awry, so that there's no question about whether they're trying to make amends, or whether that attempt is sufficient.  


Caveat/skull: The obvious problem is people attempting to game the system—they notice that ten pushups is way easier than doing the diligent work required to show up on time 95 times out of 100.  The next obvious problem is that the price is set too low for the group, leaving them to still feel jilted or wronged, and the next obvious problem is that the price is set too high for the individual, leaving them to feel unfairly judged or punished (the fun part is when both of those are true at the same time).  Lastly, there's something in the mix about arbitrariness—what do pushups have to do with lateness, really?  I mean, I get that it's paying some kind of unpleasant cost, but ...


Problem 4: Defections & Compounded Interest

I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of hearing about one-boxing and iterated prisoners' dilemmas, so I'm going to move through this one fairly quickly even though it could be its own whole multipage post.  In essence, the problem is that any rate of tolerance of real defection (i.e. unmitigated by the social loop-closing norms above) ultimately results in the destruction of the system.  Another way to put this is that people underestimate by a couple of orders of magnitude the corrosive impact of their defections—we often convince ourselves that 90% or 99% is good enough, when in fact what's needed is something like 99.99%.

There's something good that happens if you put a little bit of money away with every paycheck, and it vanishes or is severely curtailed once you stop, or start skipping a month here and there.  Similarly, there's something good that happens when a group of people agree to meet in the same place at the same time without fail, and it vanishes or is severely curtailed once one person skips twice.

In my work at the Center for Applied Rationality, I frequently tell my colleagues and volunteers "if you're 95% reliable, that means I can't rely on you."  That's because I'm in a context where "rely" means really trust that it'll get done.  No, really.  No, I don't care what comes up, DID YOU DO THE THING?  And if the answer is "Yeah, 19 times out of 20," then I can't give that person tasks ever again, because we run more than 20 workshops and I can't have one of them catastrophically fail.

(I mean, I could.  It probably wouldn't be the end of the world.  But that's exactly the point—I'm trying to create a pocket universe in which certain things, like "the CFAR workshop will go well," are absolutely reliable, and the "absolute" part is important.)

As far as I can tell, it's hyperbolic discounting all over again—the person who wants to skip out on the meetup sees all of these immediate, local costs to attending, and all of these visceral, large gains to defection, and their S1 doesn't properly weight the impact to those distant, cumulative effects (just like the person who's going to end up with no retirement savings because they wanted those new shoes this month instead of next month).  1.01^n takes a long time to look like it's going anywhere, and in the meantime the quick one-time payoff of 1.1 that you get by knocking everything else down to .99^n looks juicy and delicious and seems justified.

But something magical does accrue when you make the jump from 99% to 100%.  That's when you see teams that truly trust and rely on one another, or marriages built on unshakeable faith (and you see what those teams and partnerships can build, when they can adopt time horizons of years or decades rather than desperately hoping nobody will bail after the third meeting).  It starts with a common knowledge understanding that yes, this is the priority, even—no, wait, especially—when it seems like there are seductively convincing arguments for it to not be.  When you know—not hope, but know—that you will make a local sacrifice for the long-term good, and you know that they will, too, and you all know that you all know this, both about yourselves and about each other.

Proposed solution: Discuss, and then agree upon, and then rigidly and rigorously enforce a norm of perfection in all formal undertakings (and, correspondingly, be more careful and more conservative about which undertakings you officially take on, versus which things you're just casually trying out as an informal experiment), with said norm to be modified/iterated only during predecided strategic check-in points and not on the fly, in the middle of things.  Build a habit of clearly distinguishing targets you're going to hit from targets you'd be happy to hit.  Agree upon and uphold surprisingly high costs for defection, Hofstadter style, recognizing that a cost that feels high enough probably isn't.  Leave people wiggle room as in Problem 3, but define that wiggle room extremely concretely and objectively, so that it's clear in advance when a line is about to be crossed.  Be ridiculously nitpicky and anal about supporting standards that don't seem worth supporting, in the moment, if they're in arenas that you've previously assessed as susceptible to compounding.  Be ruthless about discarding standards during strategic review; if a member of the group says that X or Y or Z is too high-cost for them to sustain, believe them, and make decisions accordingly.

Caveat/skull: Obviously, because we're humans, even people who reflectively endorse such an overall solution will chafe when it comes time for them to pay the price (I certainly know I've chafed under standards I fought to install).  At that point, things will seem arbitrary and overly constraining, priorities will seem misaligned (and might actually be), and then feelings will be hurt and accusations will be leveled and things will be rough.  The solution there is to have, already in place, strong and open channels of communication, strong norms and scaffolds for emotional support, strong default assumption of trust and good intent on all sides, etc. etc.  This goes wrongest when things fester and people feel they can't speak up; it goes much better if people have channels to lodge their complaints and reservations and are actively incentivized to do so (and can do so without being accused of defecting on the norm-in-question; criticism =/= attack).

 

Problem 5: Everything else

There are other models and problems in the mix—for instance, I have a model surrounding buy-in and commitment that deals with an escalating cycle of asks-and-rewards, or a model of how to effectively leverage a group around you to accomplish ambitious tasks that requires you to first lay down some "topsoil" of simple/trivial/arbitrary activities that starts the growth of an ecology of affordances, or a theory that the strategy of trying things and doing things outstrips the strategy of think-until-you-identify-worthwhile-action, and that rationalists in particular are crippling themselves through decision paralysis/letting the perfect be the enemy of the good when just doing vaguely interesting projects would ultimately gain them more skill and get them further ahead, or a strong sense based off both research and personal experience that physical proximity matters, and that you can't build the correct kind of strength and flexibility and trust into your relationships without actually spending significant amounts of time with one another in meatspace on a regular basis, regardless of whether that makes tactical sense given your object-level projects and goals.

But I'm going to hold off on going into those in detail until people insist on hearing about them or ask questions/pose hesitations that could be answered by them.


Section 2 of 3: Power dynamics

All of the above was meant to point at reasons why I suspect trusting individuals responding to incentives moment-by-moment to be a weaker and less effective strategy than building an intentional community that Actually Asks Things Of Its Members.  It was also meant to justify, at least indirectly, why a strong guiding hand might be necessary given that our community's evolved norms haven't really produced results (in the group houses) commensurate with the promises of EA and rationality.

Ultimately, though, what matters is not the problems and solutions themselves so much as the light they shine on my aesthetics (since, in the actual house, it's those aesthetics that will be used to resolve epistemic gridlock).  In other words, it's not so much those arguments as it is the fact that Duncan finds those arguments compelling.  It's worth noting that the people most closely involved with this project (i.e. my closest advisors and those most likely to actually sign on as housemates) have been encouraged to spend a significant amount of time explicitly vetting me with regards to questions like "does this guy actually think things through," "is this guy likely to be stupid or meta-stupid," "will this guy listen/react/update/pivot in response to evidence or consensus opposition," and "when this guy has intuitions that he can't explain, do they tend to be validated in the end?"

In other words, it's fair to view this whole post as an attempt to prove general trustworthiness (in both domain expertise and overall sanity), because—well—that's what it is.  In milieu like the military, authority figures expect (and get) obedience irrespective of whether or not they've earned their underlings' trust; rationalists tend to have a much higher bar before they're willing to subordinate their decisionmaking processes, yet still that's something this sort of model requires of its members (at least from time to time, in some domains, in a preliminary "try things with benefit of the doubt" sort of way).  I posit that Dragon Army Barracks works (where "works" means "is good and produces both individual and collective results that outstrip other group houses by at least a factor of three") if and only if its members are willing to hold doubt in reserve and act with full force in spite of reservations—if they're willing to trust me more than they trust their own sense of things (at least in the moment, pending later explanation and recalibration on my part or theirs or both).

And since that's a) the central difference between DA and all the other group houses, which are collections of non-subordinate equals, and b) quite the ask, especially in a rationalist community, it's entirely appropriate that it be given the greatest scrutiny.  Likely participants in the final house spent ~64 consecutive hours in my company a couple of weekends ago, specifically to play around with living under my thumb and see whether it's actually a good place to be; they had all of the concerns one would expect and (I hope) had most of those concerns answered to their satisfaction.  The rest of you will have to make do with grilling me in the comments here.

 

"Why was Tyler Durden building an army?  To what purpose?  For what greater good? ...in Tyler we trusted."

 

Power and authority are generally anti-epistemic—for every instance of those-in-power defending themselves against the barbarians at the gates or anti-vaxxers or the rise of Donald Trump, there are a dozen instances of them squashing truth, undermining progress that would make them irrelevant, and aggressively promoting the status quo.

Thus, every attempt by an individual to gather power about themselves is at least suspect, given regular ol' incentive structures and regular ol' fallible humans.  I can (and do) claim to be after a saved world and a bunch of people becoming more the-best-versions-of-themselves-according-to-themselves, but I acknowledge that's exactly the same claim an egomaniac would make, and I acknowledge that the link between "Duncan makes all his housemates wake up together and do pushups" and "the world is incrementally less likely to end in gray goo and agony" is not obvious.

And it doesn't quite solve things to say, "well, this is an optional, consent-based process, and if you don't like it, don't join," because good and moral people have to stop and wonder whether their friends and colleagues with slightly weaker epistemics and slightly less-honed allergies to evil are getting hoodwinked.  In short, if someone's building a coercive trap, it's everyone's problem.

 

"Over and over he thought of the things he did and said in his first practice with his new army. Why couldn't he talk like he always did in his evening practice group? No authority except excellence. Never had to give orders, just made suggestions. But that wouldn't work, not with an army. His informal practice group didn't have to learn to do things together. They didn't have to develop a group feeling; they never had to learn how to hold together and trust each other in battle. They didn't have to respond instantly to command.

And he could go to the other extreme, too. He could be as lax and incompetent as Rose the Nose, if he wanted. He could make stupid mistakes no matter what he did. He had to have discipline, and that meant demanding—and getting—quick, decisive obedience. He had to have a well-trained army, and that meant drilling the soldiers over and over again, long after they thought they had mastered a technique, until it was so natural to them that they didn't have to think about it anymore."

 

But on the flip side, we don't have time to waste.  There's existential risk, for one, and even if you don't buy ex-risk à la AI or bioterrorism or global warming, people's available hours are trickling away at the alarming rate of one hour per hour, and none of us are moving fast enough to get All The Things done before we die.  I personally feel that I am operating far below my healthy sustainable maximum capacity, and I'm not alone in that, and something like Dragon Army could help.

So.  Claims, as clearly as I can state them, in answer to the question "why should a bunch of people sacrifice non-trivial amounts of their autonomy to Duncan?"

1. Somebody ought to run this, and no one else will.  On the meta level, this experiment needs to be run—we have like twenty or thirty instances of the laissez-faire model, and none of the high-standards/hardcore one, and also not very many impressive results coming out of our houses.  Due diligence demands investigation of the opposite hypothesis.  On the object level, it seems uncontroversial to me that there are goods waiting on the other side of the unpleasant valley—goods that a team of leveled-up, coordinated individuals with bonds of mutual trust can seize that the rest of us can't even conceive of, at this point, because we don't have a deep grasp of what new affordances appear once you get there.

2. I'm the least unqualified person around.  Those words are chosen deliberately, for this post on "less wrong."  I have a unique combination of expertise that includes being a rationalist, sixth grade teacher, coach, RA/head of a dormitory, ringleader of a pack of hooligans, member of two honor code committees, curriculum director, obsessive sci-fi/fantasy nerd, writer, builder, martial artist, parkour guru, maker, and generalist.  If anybody's intuitions and S1 models are likely to be capable of distinguishing the uncanny valley from the real deal, I posit mine are.

3. There's never been a safer context for this sort of experiment.  It's 2017, we live in the United States, and all of the people involved are rationalists.  We all know about NVC and double crux, we're all going to do Circling, we all know about Gendlin's Focusing, and we've all read the Sequences (or will soon).  If ever there was a time to say "let's all step out onto the slippery slope, I think we can keep our balance," it's now—there's no group of people better equipped to stop this from going sideways.

4. It does actually require a tyrant. As a part of a debrief during the weekend experiment/dry run, we went around the circle and people talked about concerns/dealbreakers/things they don't want to give up.  One interesting thing that popped up is that, according to consensus, it's literally impossible to find a time of day when the whole group could get together to exercise.  This happened even with each individual being willing to make personal sacrifices and doing things that are somewhat costly.

If, of course, the expectation is that everybody shows up on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, and the cost of not doing so is not being present in the house, suddenly the situation becomes simple and workable.  And yes, this means some kids left behind (ctrl+f), but the whole point of this is to be instrumentally exclusive and consensually high-commitment.  You just need someone to make the actual final call—there are too many threads for the coordination problem of a house of this kind to be solved by committee, and too many circumstances in which it's impossible to make a principled, justifiable decision between 492 almost-indistinguishably-good options.  On top of that, there's a need for there to be some kind of consistent, neutral force that sets course, imposes consistency, resolves disputes/breaks deadlock, and absorbs all of the blame for the fact that it's unpleasant to be forced to do things you know you ought to but don't want to do.

And lastly, we (by which I indicate the people most likely to end up participating) want the house to do stuff—to actually take on projects of ambitious scope, things that require ten or more talented people reliably coordinating for months at a time.  That sort of coordination requires a quarterback on the field, even if the strategizing in the locker room is egalitarian.

5. There isn't really a status quo for power to abusively maintain.  Dragon Army Barracks is not an object-level experiment in making the best house; it's a meta-level experiment attempting (through iteration rather than armchair theorizing) to answer the question "how best does one structure a house environment for growth, self-actualization, productivity, and social synergy?"  It's taken as a given that we'll get things wrong on the first and second and third try; the whole point is to shift from one experiment to the next, gradually accumulating proven-useful norms via consensus mechanisms, and the centralized power is mostly there just to keep the transitions smooth and seamless.  More importantly, the fundamental conceit of the model is "Duncan sees a better way, which might take some time to settle into," but after e.g. six months, if the thing is not clearly positive and at least well on its way to being self-sustaining, everyone ought to abandon it anyway.  In short, my tyranny, if net bad, has a natural time limit, because people aren't going to wait around forever for their results.

6. The experiment has protections built in.  Transparency, operationalization, and informed consent are the name of the game; communication and flexibility are how the machine is maintained.  Like the Constitution, Dragon Army's charter and organization are meant to be "living documents" that constrain change only insofar as they impose reasonable limitations on how wantonly change can be enacted.


Section 3 of 3: Dragon Army Charter (DRAFT)

Statement of purpose:

Dragon Army Barracks is a group housing and intentional community project which exists to support its members socially, emotionally, intellectually, and materially as they endeavor to improve themselves, complete worthwhile projects, and develop new and useful culture, in that order.  In addition to the usual housing commitments (i.e. rent, utilities, shared expenses), its members will make limited and specific commitments of time, attention, and effort averaging roughly 90 hours a month (~1.5hr/day plus occasional weekend activities).

Dragon Army Barracks will have an egalitarian, flat power structure, with the exception of a commander (Duncan Sabien) and a first officer (Eli Tyre).  The commander's role is to create structure by which the agreed-upon norms and standards of the group shall be discussed, decided, and enforced, to manage entry to and exit from the group, and to break epistemic gridlock/make decisions when speed or simplification is required.  The first officer's role is to manage and moderate the process of building consensus around the standards of the Army—what they are, and in what priority they should be met, and with what consequences for failure.  Other "management" positions may come into existence in limited domains (e.g. if a project arises, it may have a leader, and that leader will often not be Duncan or Eli), and will have their scope and powers defined at the point of creation/ratification.

Initial areas of exploration:

The particular object level foci of Dragon Army Barracks will change over time as its members experiment and iterate, but at first it will prioritize the following:

  • Physical proximity (exercising together, preparing and eating meals together, sharing a house and common space)
  • Regular activities for bonding and emotional support (Circling, pair debugging, weekly retrospective, tutoring/study hall)
  • Regular activities for growth and development (talk night, tutoring/study hall, bringing in experts, cross-pollination)
  • Intentional culture (experiments around lexicon, communication, conflict resolution, bets & calibration, personal motivation, distribution of resources & responsibilities, food acquisition & preparation, etc.)
  • Projects with "shippable" products (e.g. talks, blog posts, apps, events; some solo, some partner, some small group, some whole group; ranging from short-term to year-long)
  • Regular (every 6-10 weeks) retreats to learn a skill, partake in an adventure or challenge, or simply change perspective

Dragon Army Barracks will begin with a move-in weekend that will include ~10 hours of group bonding, discussion, and norm-setting.  After that, it will enter an eight-week bootcamp phase, in which each member will participate in at least the following:

  • Whole group exercise (90min, 3x/wk, e.g. Tue/Fri/Sun)
  • Whole group dinner and retrospective (120min, 1x/wk, e.g. Tue evening)
  • Small group baseline skill acquisition/study hall/cross-pollination (90min, 1x/wk)
  • Small group circle-shaped discussion (120min, 1x/wk)
  • Pair debugging or rapport building (45min, 2x/wk)
  • One-on-one check-in with commander (20min, 2x/wk)
  • Chore/house responsibilities (90min distributed)
  • Publishable/shippable solo small-scale project work with weekly public update (100min distributed)

... for a total time commitment of 16h/week or 128 hours total, followed by a whole group retreat and reorientation.  The house will then enter an eight-week trial phase, in which each member will participate in at least the following:

  • Whole group exercise (90min, 3x/wk)
  • Whole group dinner, retrospective, and plotting (150min, 1x/wk)
  • Small group circling and/or pair debugging (120min distributed)
  • Publishable/shippable small group medium-scale project work with weekly public update (180min distributed)
  • One-on-one check-in with commander (20min, 1x/wk)
  • Chore/house responsibilities (60min distributed)
... for a total time commitment of 13h/week or 104 hours total, again followed by a whole group retreat and reorientation.  The house will then enter a third phase where commitments will likely change, but will include at a minimum whole group exercise, whole group dinner, and some specific small-group responsibilities, either social/emotional or project/productive (once again ending with a whole group retreat).  At some point between the second and third phase, the house will also ramp up for its first large-scale project, which is yet to be determined but will be roughly on the scale of putting on a CFAR workshop in terms of time and complexity.

Should the experiment prove successful past its first six months, and worth continuing for a full year or longer, by the end of the first year every Dragon shall have a skill set including, but not limited to:
  • Above-average physical capacity
  • Above-average introspection
  • Above-average planning & execution skill
  • Above-average communication/facilitation skill
  • Above-average calibration/debiasing/rationality knowledge
  • Above-average scientific lab skill/ability to theorize and rigorously investigate claims
  • Average problem-solving/debugging skill
  • Average public speaking skill
  • Average leadership/coordination skill
  • Average teaching and tutoring skill
  • Fundamentals of first aid & survival
  • Fundamentals of financial management
  • At least one of: fundamentals of programming, graphic design, writing, A/V/animation, or similar (employable mental skill)
  • At least one of: fundamentals of woodworking, electrical engineering, welding, plumbing, or similar (employable trade skill)
Furthermore, every Dragon should have participated in:
  • At least six personal growth projects involving the development of new skill (or honing of prior skill)
  • At least three partner- or small-group projects that could not have been completed alone
  • At least one large-scale, whole-army project that either a) had a reasonable chance of impacting the world's most important problems, or b) caused significant personal growth and improvement
  • Daily contributions to evolved house culture
Speaking of evolved house culture...

Because of both a) the expected value of social exploration and b) the cumulative positive effects of being in a group that's trying things regularly and taking experiments seriously, Dragon Army will endeavor to adopt no fewer than one new experimental norm per week.  Each new experimental norm should have an intended goal or result, an informal theoretical backing, and a set re-evaluation time (default three weeks).  There are two routes by which a new experimental norm is put into place:

  • The experiment is proposed by a member, discussed in a whole group setting, and meets the minimum bar for adoption (>60% of the Army supports, with <20% opposed and no hard vetos)
  • The Army has proposed no new experiments in the previous week, and the Commander proposes three options.  The group may then choose one by vote/consensus, or generate three new options, from which the Commander may choose.
Examples of some of the early norms which the house is likely to try out from day one (hit the ground running):
  • The use of a specific gesture to greet fellow Dragons (house salute)
  • Various call-and-response patterns surrounding house norms (e.g. "What's rule number one?" "PROTECT YOURSELF!")
  • Practice using hook, line, and sinker in social situations (three items other than your name for introductions)
  • The anti-Singer rule for open calls-for-help (if Dragon A says "hey, can anyone help me with X?" the responsibility falls on the physically closest housemate to either help or say "Not me/can't do it!" at which point the buck passes to the next physically closest person)
  • An "interrupt" call that any Dragon may use to pause an ongoing interaction for fifteen seconds
  • A "culture of abundance" in which food and leftovers within the house are default available to all, with exceptions deliberately kept as rare as possible
  • A "graffiti board" upon which the Army keeps a running informal record of its mood and thoughts

Dragon Army Code of Conduct
While the norms and standards of Dragon Army will be mutable by design, the following (once revised and ratified) will be the immutable code of conduct for the first eight weeks, and is unlikely to change much after that.

  1. A Dragon will protect itself, i.e. will not submit to pressure causing it to do things that are dangerous or unhealthy, nor wait around passively when in need of help or support (note that this may cause a Dragon to leave the experiment!).
  2. A Dragon will take responsibility for its actions, emotional responses, and the consequences thereof, e.g. if late will not blame bad luck/circumstance, if angry or triggered will not blame the other party.
  3. A Dragon will assume good faith in all interactions with other Dragons and with house norms and activities, i.e. will not engage in strawmanning or the horns effect.
  4. A Dragon will be candid and proactive, e.g. will give other Dragons a chance to hear about and interact with negative models once they notice them forming, or will not sit on an emotional or interpersonal problem until it festers into something worse.
  5. A Dragon will be fully present and supportive when interacting with other Dragons in formal/official contexts, i.e. will not engage in silent defection, undermining, halfheartedness, aloofness, subtle sabotage, or other actions which follow the letter of the law while violating the spirit.  Another way to state this is that a Dragon will practice compartmentalization—will be able to simultaneously hold "I'm deeply skeptical about this" alongside "but I'm actually giving it an honest try," and postpone critique/complaint/suggestion until predetermined checkpoints.  Yet another way to state this is that a Dragon will take experiments seriously, including epistemic humility and actually seeing things through to their ends rather than fiddling midway.
  6. A Dragon will take the outside view seriously, maintain epistemic humility, and make subject-object shifts, i.e. will act as a behaviorist and agree to judge and be judged on the basis of actions and revealed preferences rather than intentions, hypotheses, and assumptions (this one's similar to #2 and hard to put into words, but for example, a Dragon who has been having trouble getting to sleep but has never informed the other Dragons that their actions are keeping them awake will agree that their anger and frustration, while valid internally, may not fairly be vented on those other Dragons, who were never given a chance to correct their behavior).  Another way to state this is that a Dragon will embrace the maxim "don't believe everything that you think."
  7. A Dragon will strive for excellence in all things, modified only by a) prioritization and b) doing what is necessary to protect itself/maximize total growth and output on long time scales.
  8. A Dragon will not defect on other Dragons.
There will be various operationalizations of the above commitments into specific norms (e.g. a Dragon will read all messages and emails within 24 hours, and if a full response is not possible within that window, will send a short response indicating when the longer response may be expected) that will occur once the specific members of the Army have been selected and have individually signed on.  Disputes over violations of the code of conduct, or confusions about its operationalization, will first be addressed one-on-one or in informal small group, and will then move to general discussion, and then to the first officer, and then to the commander.

Note that all of the above is deliberately kept somewhat flexible/vague/open-ended/unsettled, because we are trying not to fall prey to GOODHART'S DEMON.


Random Logistics
  1. The initial filter for attendance will include a one-on-one interview with the commander (Duncan), who will be looking for a) credible intention to put forth effort toward the goal of having a positive impact on the world, b) likeliness of a strong fit with the structure of the house and the other participants, and c) reliability à la financial stability and ability to commit fully to long-term endeavors.  Final decisions will be made by the commander and may be informally questioned/appealed but not overruled by another power.
  2. Once a final list of participants is created, all participants will sign a "free state" contract of the form "I agree to move into a house within five miles of downtown Berkeley (for length of time X with financial obligation Y) sometime in the window of July 1st through September 30th, conditional on at least seven other people signing this same agreement."  At that point, the search for a suitable house will begin, possibly with delegation to participants.
  3. Rents in that area tend to run ~$1100 per room, on average, plus utilities, plus a 10% contribution to the general house fund.  Thus, someone hoping for a single should, in the 85th percentile worst case, be prepared to make a ~$1400/month commitment.  Similarly, someone hoping for a double should be prepared for ~$700/month, and someone hoping for a triple should be prepared for ~$500/month, and someone hoping for a quad should be prepared for ~$350/month.
  4. The initial phase of the experiment is a six month commitment, but leases are generally one year.  Any Dragon who leaves during the experiment is responsible for continuing to pay their share of the lease/utilities/house fund, unless and until they have found a replacement person the house considers acceptable, or have found three potential viable replacement candidates and had each one rejected.  After six months, should the experiment dissolve, the house will revert to being simply a house, and people will bear the normal responsibility of "keep paying until you've found your replacement."  (This will likely be easiest to enforce by simply having as many names as possible on the actual lease.)
  5. Of the ~90hr/month, it is assumed that ~30 are whole-group, ~30 are small group or pair work, and ~30 are independent or voluntarily-paired work.  Furthermore, it is assumed that the commander maintains sole authority over ~15 of those hours (i.e. can require that they be spent in a specific way consistent with the aesthetic above, even in the face of skepticism or opposition).
  6. We will have an internal economy whereby people can trade effort for money and money for time and so on and so forth, because heck yeah.

Conclusion: Obviously this is neither complete nor perfect.  What's wrong, what's missing, what do you think?  I'm going to much more strongly weight the opinions of Berkelyans who are likely to participate, but I'm genuinely interested in hearing from everyone, particularly those who notice red flags (the goal is not to do anything stupid or meta-stupid).  Have fun tearing it up.

(sorry for the abrupt cutoff, but this was meant to be published Monday and I've just ... not ... been ... sleeping ... to get it done)

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The most common cause of the collapse of high investment intentional communities is romantic drama.

(Maybe the Dragon Barracks are so obviously a boy thing that you're taking for granted that there will be no girls in the house, but all the weird non-gendered pronouns like "a Dragon will brush its teeth" imply either an attempt to have a team composed of both men or women, or else a hilarious level of contempt for the agency of your space monkeys. I'm going to assume that you're imagining mixed gender living arrangements rather than already starting with verbal de-personalization of presumed uniformly male space monkeys...)

So anyway, assuming men and women in the house at the same time, that's what usually causes things to collapse in the long run.

The two standard failure modes are Bonobo egalitarianism that collapses due to the accumulation of residual jealousies over time or else a harem forms around the charismatic cult leader (which isn't necessarily a failure mode... it is just a sign of a cult leader whose stated community goals are a load of hypocritical baloney compared to the real goal of getting more than his "fair share" of tail -- cue the Limp Bizkit song).

There are lots of patches for this sort of thing that have historically worked for various kinds of communities. Requiring celibacy is an obvious one that monasteries often use. Disallowing any romantic statuses except "single" and "closed dyadic marriage" (with a managed "courting" status to mediate the one way transition) is another standard trick.

Whatever the rule is, the standard enforcement mechanism is "ostracism" because the real problem from a social engineering perspective is the accumulation of complicated feelings that slow and redirect the workings of the social machine away from its stated purposes and towards managing the wreckage of new and old love triangles. If you throw away the cogs that are liable to have "complicated feelings" and replace them with non-complicated cogs... then the machine should continue to run as designed?

(I think maybe the romantic mores that were junked in the US in the 1960's arose in the first place because villages are kinda like auto-poetic intentional communities. The pragmatically useful norms of village romance, that kept the village from exploding, could be semi-safely junked because (well, obviosuly "the pill" but also because) cities are anonymous and moderately well mixed... essentially everyone in a city is already pre-ostrasized by everyone else, and we each are desperately struggling to create a synthetic village-like community despite the isolating forces of urban mixing. In an already chaotic urban romantic economy a divorce causing additional minor lesioning of the local social graph is like a dust devil in a hurricane. There might actually be a lot of dust devils caused by hurricane turbulence for all I know, but I'm pretty sure no one cares much because the actual hurricane make them irrelevant.)

Anyway, for the above reasons, you might want to just say "this is a fraternity and if women want to start a rationalist sorority that can be a separate thing". Alternatively, think about romantic norms up front.

Anyway, for the above reasons, you might want to just say "this is a fraternity and if women want to start a rationalist sorority that can be a separate thing".

Possible advantage of this solution: I've noticed that male bonding gets a lot easier when a group goes from being "almost all guys" to "all guys". (I imagine it would get easier still if you are regularly doing testosterone-elevating things that require coordination with your group of guys, the way sports teams, armies, fraternities, and heavy metal bands do. I suspect men have a pack hunting instinct that gets activated in circumstances like these.)

One idea that is probably necessary but not sufficient is for the Commander (and anyone else with any authority in the house) to have an absolute commitment not to sleep with anyone else in the house.

Edit: with this rule, a different/earlier version of me might have been interested. Without it I would never be.

1) I agree with the very high-level point that there are lots of rationalist group houses with flat / egalitarian structures, and so it might make sense to try one that's more authoritarian to see how that works. Sincere kudos to you for forming a concrete experimental plan and discussing it in public.

2) I don't think I've met you or heard of you before, and my first impression of you from your blog post is that you are very hungry for power. Like, you sound like you would really, really enjoy being the chief of a tribe, bossing people around, having people look up to you as their leader, feeling like an alpha male, etc. The main reason this makes me uncomfortable is that I don't see you owning this desire anywhere in your long post. Like, if you had said, just once, "I think I would enjoy being a leader, and I think you might enjoy being led by me," I would feel calmer. Instead I'm worried that you have convinced yourself that you are grudgingly stepping up as a leader because it's necessary and no one else will. If you're not being fully honest about your motivations for nominating yourself to be an authoritarian leader, what else are you hiding?

3) Your post has a very high ratio of detailed proposals to literature review. I would have liked to see you discuss other group houses in more detail, make reference to articles or books or blog posts about the theory of cohousing and of utopian communities more generally, or otherwise demonstrate that you have done your homework to find out what has worked, what has not worked, and why. None of your proposals sound obviously bad to me, and you've clearly put some thought and care into articulating them, but it's not clear whether your proposals are backed up by research, or whether you're just reasoning from your armchair.

4) Why should anyone follow you on an epic journey to improve their time management skills if you're sleep-deprived and behind schedule on writing a blog post? Don't you need to be more or less in control of your own lifestyle before you can lead others to improve theirs?

I don't think I've met you or heard of you before, and my first impression of you from your blog post is that you are very hungry for power. Like, you sound like you would really, really enjoy being the chief of a tribe, bossing people around, having people look up to you as their leader, feeling like an alpha male, etc.

As someone who knows Duncan moderately well in person and has been under his leadership in a few contexts (CFAR instructor training and the recent Dragon Army experiment), I can confirm that this is nowhere close to true. What Duncan is hungry for is for the world to be better, and he thinks as a contingent fact that being the chief of this particular tribe is the best way for him to do that. I agree with Duncan's assessment of himself that if someone else stepped up to do the thing he would breathe an enormous sigh of relief, rather than be in any way jealous.

Why should anyone follow you on an epic journey to improve their time management skills if you're sleep-deprived and behind schedule on writing a blog post?

It depends on how urgent you think Duncan thinks having this blog post out sooner rather than later is. If Duncan were optimizing for looking like he has his shit together he could have either just not mentioned that he was sleep-deprived and behind schedule, or he could have gotten more sleep and fallen further behind schedule. Instead he posted the blog post, and went out of his way to mention that he was sleep-deprived and behind schedule, because he is optimizing for something else.

1) Thanks.

2) Nope, you're just way off (though I appreciate the candor). I thought about coming up with some sort of epistemically humble "maybe" or "I can see where you got that impression," but it seems more advisable to simply be direct, and to sound as confident as I am. I've been a leader, and I've been a follower, and I've transitioned in both directions within the same contexts, and there's no special draw there along any of the lines you laid out. In particular, I think the statement "this needs to happen, and no one else is going to do it" is actually true; if some contender wants to stand up and credibly claim they can pull this off better than me, I will IMMEDIATELY hand them the baton and breathe a sigh of relief—my actual favorite place to be is second or third in command.

Feel free to PM me if you're actually curious about my history, or to poke around my reputation within the community, or to ask any of the dozen or so people who've worked with me for a couple of years, or the twenty people who attended the dry run experiment last week (I can point you in their direction more specifically, also through PM).

(I also considered whether to update/change my tone given your first impression, but it seems to be enough of an outlier that I probably won't make any deliberate effort.)

3) I think you and I might disagree fairly strongly on the importance/value/worth of "the literature" in this arena. Part of the whole point here is that I have a solid inside view developed from a unique set of experiences that a lot of other people are doing it wrong. I think there's some value in literature review (e.g. the sources that Benquo listed up above seem worth at least an afternoon's perusing), but in three separate fields I've found that my idiosyncratic ideas that everyone said contradicted the literature and wouldn't work did, in fact, work, and produced excellent results; I'm not actually convinced that there's enough EV to justify more than a quick, 80/20 skim of the available info. I'm currently reasoning from my armchair—that's a fair point. But also the whole screed is "let's get down to the business of running experiments and gathering data," and I note again that we did already do a test weekend that gave promising preliminary support to a lot of my models and claims.

4) Another quite sound/reasonable criticism, taking the outside view with no priors to add detail to your model. In point of fact, though, it's been a 90th percentile unusual month (I'm the curriculum director in an org that just ran its most ambitious sprint of events to date, including bringing in a round of new employees whose training I was almost entirely responsible for, and then since that ended I've been churning hard on this project), and it's not particularly strong evidence about other months. Also, I think it's reasonable to posit that one needs to be more or less in control before leading others, but I note it's not obvious—I can clearly envision (for instance) models in which one person sacrifices themselves to push everyone else forward. That's not what I plan to do, but the picture isn't as straightforward as a clever-sounding false equivalency.

Also, lastly, remember the house is supposed to help me, too:

I personally feel that I am operating far below my healthy sustainable maximum capacity, and I'm not alone in that, and something like Dragon Army could help.

I'm not the only one with skills, and a big part of it is creating a construct that I can use to level up and improve. The part where I impose structure is separate from the part where maybe I could leverage social pressure to improve my own workflow.

In the spirit of Murphyjitsu, the most obvious failure mode that you didn't mention is that I expect you to burn out dramatically after a few weeks, from exhaustion or the psychological strain of trying to optimize the experiences of N people. The bootcamp phase is not analogous to anything I've heard of you doing sustainably for an extended period of time.

So, do you expect Dragon Army Barracks to work if Eli has to take over for you in Week Four?

Hmm, interesting. My self-model is somewhat incapable of burning out during this, due to an ability to run forever on spite (that's only somewhat tongue-in-cheek).

It's a solid point, though. If I condition on burnout, I think that Eli manages or not based on the level of specificity and concreteness that we managed to get in place in the first few weeks. Like, I don't think Eli is competent (yet) to create the thing, but I do think he's competent to oversee its maintenance and preservation. So that seems to put a somewhat higher priority on early systemization and scaffold-building than might have otherwise been in my plan.

Good question.

Edit: also, probably the closest analogue to this in my past is being the sole functioning RA on a dorm hall of ~30 high schoolers in a high-stress school environment. That was probably within the same order of magnitude of juggling, once you account for the fact that my increase in skill since then is balanced by the increase in complexity/responsibility. I did a lot to try to manage the experience of those thirty people.

FWIW, my model of Duncan agrees with his model of himself here. I don't expect him to burn out doing this.

…and even if he does, I expect that the combo of Eli plus the sort of people I imagine being part of Dragon Army would pull it through. Not guaranteed, but with a strong enough chance that I'm basically not worried about a failure mode along the lines of "Flops due to Duncan burnout and subsequent systems failures."

-- A note: I originally sent Duncan criticism privately. I didn't want to add too much negativity to the discussion. But Duncan asked me to post publicly and I will defer to his judgement. Its his project and he is a very capable guy. I really hope DA succeeds, the rationalist community could be doing much better on many metrics. In general I find the model of DA very promising. But I have some serious concerns.

-- The ethics code seems extremely strict.

For example this rule strikes me as extraordinarily hard to follow: "A Dragon will assume good faith in all interactions with other Dragons". As does "A Dragon will be fully present and supportive when interacting with other Dragons in formal/official contexts".

Earlier in the document Duncan said "Discuss, and then agree upon, and then rigidly and rigorously enforce a norm of perfection in all formal undertakings". This implies to me that Duncan intends to enforce the CoC pretty strictly. Should Duncan be confidant its reasonable to expect such large deviations from how humans normally operate? I should note that normal bootcamps do not require as much psychologically from their recruits. Even though bootcamps require obedience they don't normally require recruits to think a certain way.

Duncan explicitly said he was willing to modify norms that members felt were too hard to follow (" Be ruthless about discarding standards during strategic review; if a member of the group says that X or Y or Z is too high-cost for them to sustain, believe them, and make decisions accordingly."). But he also said that the CoC was unlikely to change. If I thought the CoC was meant more as a set of guidelines than strict rules I would be less worried. But that is not how I interpreted the post.

-- How many people do we expect to leave or get kicked out?

I have moderated some internet communities (And admin an active one now). Temp bans and warnings can only go so far. At some points you have to be willing to pull the trigger and ban people.

The section on reparations reassured me that Duncan was thinking hard about to keep people from falling off the path. In addition, unlike most internet communities, the DA recruits will be heavily vetted. But in order to enforce the reparations you either have to appeal to social pressure or the threat of kicking people out. I think the standards are very strict so serious discipline might be needed.

-- Are there practical or ethical problems with this plan?

People who get kicked out of DA are still required to pay rent until they can find a replacement. Assuming they are on the lease it seems highly unlikely you can kick them out of the house. However if someone gets kicked out of the house they might be pretty negative towards the rest of the group. It probably a bad situation to keep them around, but maybe they can't easily find a replacement or a new place to live.

Secondly people who get kicked out might be psychologically unable to remain at the DA barracks. But until they can find someone to replace them they are on the hook for rent. In my personal opinion joining dragon army should be a "Good deal" for anyone involved. Its important that the downside of: "get kicked out" -> "lose friends, need to find a replacement despite the fact that you got kicked out and maybe can't give DA a good review, on the hook for lots of rent" is manageable. I would really hate to see anyone get hurt. I assume Duncan shares my concerns but he didn't address them in the post.

In addition, has Duncan looked into the legalities surrounding renter's rights in California (and Berkeley in particular)? This isn't in the post even if he has done the research.

-- Duncan said the following "I also considered whether to update/change my tone given your first impression, but it seems to be enough of an outlier that I probably won't make any deliberate effort.

Its plausible to me they aren't much of an outlier. I had the same reaction, as did several people I showed Duncan's post to (though other people thought Duncan's post sounded fine). If I didn't know Duncan was the curriculum director at CFAR I would have thought he was crazy and probably dangerous. Stuff about "living under my thumb", self comparisons to Tyler Durden and the ender's game quote about "quick, decisive obedience" really worried me. Some of the most shocking stuff, from my perspective, was in the pop culture references. But a number of things in the main text gave off an extremely strong cult vibe. Some examples include the "house salute" and the "Various call-and-response patterns surrounding house norms". I should note I am not accusing Duncan of anything, based on his reputation he seems trustworthy. But his tone definitely set off loud alarm bells for me.

--

Again I am really happy people are considering new rationalist norms. Duncan seems like a very good choice to lead an experimental project. The general strategy of DA seems like a good one. But I wanted to share my concerns.

This post is so thoroughly repulsive and disgusting that I made an account for the sole purpose of pointing out how transparently and obviously perverse this fucked-up proposal is. Naturally I don't have any actual desire to be critical or rude; it's just that nobody else is doing it, so because of my infinite kindness and charity (if you have any doubts, rest assured that my closest friends and colleagues will all attest to my beneficent nature), I find myself obligated to step up to the batting plate, so to speak. Ah, if only someone could release me from this great burden. If only.

The author seems to have missed the part of Ender's Game about the protagonists being children. It's generally not a good thing for adults to role-play as children (the reasons for which are, I hope, sufficiently obvious to not require elaboration). The dominant impression I get from this is that this resembles the antifa movement and the anti-antifa movement: it's a bunch of immature adults LARPing but pretending that they aren't doing so.

Note that despite the author's insistence on the validity of his experience as a CFAR instructor, he fails to actually point to any concrete benefits that people have derived from that instruction -- plausibly because those benefits, when concretely stated without embellishment, are at best underwhelming. Note also that (1) no mention of dealing with problems arising from interpersonal romance are mentioned in the post and (2) the author's reply to the comment that does point out the probable future existence of such problems receives what can at best be termed a cursory and dismissive reply.

This suggests that, contrary to the author's assertion of having amassed a diverse and broad range of skills, and contrary to whatever accolades his colleagues may see fit to place upon him, he hasn't yet attained the level of social awareness of a typical American high school student. It also suggests that the author's ability to model himself and to model others has more-or-less not yet attained the level of sophistication required to view people as more than one-dimensional. I.e., the post seems to suggest an attitude of "I, a good person, will find a bunch of good people, and we'll make these good things happen". I'm pretty sure I've met high school students with a more nuanced (and less optimistic) understanding of human nature.

Naturally, this would be excused if the Berkeley rationalist community were full of people who are actually good people and who tend to get things done. Let's check: Qiaochu Yuan, one of the most mathematically sophisticated members, has to the best of my knowledge hit a dead end in his PhD, and is becoming a CFAR instructor in Seattle, which makes it seem as though he's actually concretely worse off compared to the counterfactual in which the rationalist community didn't exist; Eliezer Yudkowsky has shifted in the direction of posting practically-untrue, self-aggrandizing bullshit on Twitter and Facebook instead of doing anything productive; Arbital is best described as a failure; word is going around that Anna Salamon and Nate Soares are engaging in bizarre conspiratorial planning around some unsubstantiated belief that the world will end in ten years, leading to severe dissatisfaction among the staff of MIRI; despite the efforts of a very valiant man, people have still not realized that autogynephilic men with repressed femininity and a crossdressing fetish pretending to be women aren't actually women; CFAR itself is trending in the direction of adding bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake; my own personal experience with people branded as "CFAR instructors" has been extremely negative, with them effectively acting arrogant out of proportion to their competence, not to mention their below-average levels of empathy; there was that bizarre scandal last year in which someone was accidentally impregnated and then decided not to abort the child, going against what had previously been agreed upon, and proceeded to shamelessly solicit donations from the rationalist community to support her child; etc., etc., etc.

In effect, there seems to be some sort of self-deception around the fact that the Berkeley rationalist community is by almost all reasonable standards severely dysfunctional, with the best people actually being on the periphery of the community. It's almost as if the author is coming up with the "Dragon Army" in an attempt to help everyone collectively delude themselves into believing they're much better than they are, because he can't bear to actually look at the Berkeley rationalist community and see it for what it is: a pile of garbage. Just like how a child from a broken family might imagine that everyone's getting along. Unfortunately(?), flinching away from the truth doesn't actually make reality go away.

Amusingly, it actually does seem as though the author partially realizes this. Let's review the criteria which the author hopes the members of "Dragon Army" will fulfill after a year's worth of cult membership:

(1) Above-average physical capacity (2) Above-average introspection (3) Above-average planning & execution skill (4) Above-average communication/facilitation skill (5) Above-average calibration/debiasing/rationality knowledge (6) Above-average scientific lab skill/ability to theorize and rigorously investigate claims (7) Average problem-solving/debugging skill (8) Average public speaking skill (9) Average leadership/coordination skill (10) Average teaching and tutoring skill (11) Fundamentals of first aid & survival (12) Fundamentals of financial management (13) At least one of: fundamentals of programming, graphic design, writing, A/V/animation, or similar (employable mental skill) (14) At least one of: fundamentals of woodworking, electrical engineering, welding, plumbing, or similar (employable trade skill)

"Above-average"? "Average"? Not exactly a high bar. "At least one employable mental skill, and at least one employable trade skill"? Is the correct inference here that the typical participant is actually expected to be not employable at all (i.e., deficient in both categories)? "First aid & survival" -- if there was ever any doubt that this is actually just sophisticated childish role-playing... The fact that I (in contrast with the Berkeley rationalist community) have put very little directed effort into the meta-goal of self-improvement and nevertheless plausibly already satisfy 11 of these 14 criteria, with the other 3 not seeming particularly difficult to attain, is not a good sign!

Despite the fixation on "evolving norms" or whatever, the author seems to be particularly blind to what social reality is actually like and what actually makes communities get along. Consider, e.g., the following quote:

for example, a Dragon who has been having trouble getting to sleep but has never informed the other Dragons that their actions are keeping them awake will agree that their anger and frustration, while valid internally, may not fairly be vented on those other Dragons, who were never given a chance to correct their behavior

Let me pose a question to the reader of my comment: would you rather live in a house where you have to constantly verbally ask the other residents to stop doing things that they could have reasonably foreseen would bother you, or would you rather live in a house where people actually used reasonable expectations of what other people want to guide their behavior and therefore acted in a way that preempted causing other people irritation?

There are two inferences to be made here:

  1. Members of the Berkeley rationalist community are particularly prone to using bureaucratic rule-setting as a way to compensate for their severely below-average social skills, and
  2. Members of the Berkeley rationalist community are particularly low-empathy and embody the worst of individualism, such that they don't actually care whether or not what they're doing might bother others until they're told to stop.

In my personal experience, both inferences are correct. Ultimately, what this comes down to is a bunch of socially-inept losers with near-autistic social skills trying to attain the sort of basic social harmony that comes naturally to more competent people via a combination of bizarre mimicry and a mountain of bureaucracy. Naturally, and contrary to the author's bizarre childish idealism, one can expect a hell of a lot of repressed irritation, interpersonal drama, and general unpleasantness from this experiment.

To top off the turd cake with a cherry, the author's science fiction writing is trash:

I felt my stomach twist, felt that same odd certainty, this time wrapped in a layer of the coldest, blackest ice. “You came to kill us,” I said. There was a soft rustle as the others straightened, pressure on my shoulders as the space between us closed. “You came to kill us all.”

Anyone who can vomit that out on a page and feel proud of it isn't fit to lead or teach anything. Period. The world would be concretely better off if the author, and anyone like him, killed themselves.

PSA:

Do not feed trolls.

In ages past, vitriol like this would be downvoted into oblivion. This was out of recognition that norms of good discourse are more important than the content of arguments. Failure to abide by this spreads rot and makes good communal epistemic hygiene even more difficult.

I notice downvoting is disabled now. Which, sadly, means that people will be tempted to engage with this. Which reinforces a norm of having one's dissent noticed by acting like an unapologetic asshole. Which burns the future of this garden.

So as a close second, I advise just thoroughly ignoring 18239018038528017428 unless and until they step up to meet more noble conversational norms. If there are good points to be made here, they should be converted into the truth-seeking style Less Wrong aspires to so that we can all engage with them in a more hygienic way.

I appreciate Duncan's attempts to do that conversion and speak to the converted form of the argument.

But unless and until I see enough evidence to convince me otherwise, I assume 18239018038528017428's intentions are not truth-seeking. I assume they are inflammatory and will not change via civil discourse.

Ergo, request to all:

Do not feed trolls.

PS: I will follow my own advice here and have no intention of replying to 18239018038528017428 unless and until they transpose their discourse into the key of decency. I expect them to reply to me here, probably with more vitriol and some kind of personal attack and/or attempt to discredit me personally. My ignoring them should be taken as my following my own policy. Note that if 18239018038528017428 does reply with vitriol, it will probably be in some way fashioned as an attempt to make my very refusal to engage look like confirmation of their narrative. Please filter your reading of any replies to my message here accordingly.

I'm the person who advocated most strongly for getting the downvote disabled, and I share some of 18239018038528017428's skepticism about the community in the Bay Area, but I strongly agree with Val's comment. There are already a ton of case studies on the internet in how fragile good conversational norms are. I'm going to email Vaniver and encourage him to delete or edit the vitriol out of comments from 18239018038528017428.

(Also ditto everything Val said about not replying to 18239018038528017428)

I'm going to email Vaniver and encourage him to delete or edit the vitriol out of comments from 18239018038528017428.

Thanks for that; I had already noticed this thread but a policy of reporting things is often helpful. It seemed like Duncan was handling himself well, and that leaving this up was better than censoring it. It seems easier for people to judge the screed fairly with the author's original tone, and so just editing out the vitriol seems problematic.

With the new site, we expect to have mod tools that will be helpful here, like downvoting making this invisible-by-default, to ip-banning and other things to make creating a different throwaway account difficult.

For the record: at the risk of being a lonely dissenter, I strongly disagree with any notion that any of this discussion should have been censored in any way. (I was even grateful for the current impossibility of downvoting.)

Five years ago, or even two, my opinion would have been quite different. By this point, however, I have undergone a fairly massive update in the direction of thinking people are far, far too sensitive about matters of "tone" and the like. These norms of sensitivity are used to subtly restrict information flow. Ultimately Duncan and everyone else are better off knowing about the numerically-pseudonymous commenter's opinion in all of its gory detail. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the more they engage with this individual, the better; especially since the natural tendency will be to go in the opposite direction, circle the wagons, and dismiss the critic as a low-status outsider -- a behavior pattern that doesn't need more practice, IMHO.

(At any rate, the individual seems contemptuous enough of their targets that I would expect them to disengage on their own before the full value of discussion with them has been extracted.)

But unless and until I see evidence otherwise, I assume 18239018038528017428's intentions are not truth-seeking.

Evidence: time and energy put into the comment. Evidence: not staying silent when they could have.

I am not saying theee offending comments are valid, instead I am curious as to why you discounted what I identify as evidence?

Strong support for this person's willingness to contribute the opposite opinion.

Strong support for this person's willingness to take the time to write things up in detail.

Strong appreciation for the trust implicit in this being posted here (i.e. it's a compliment along the lines of "I expect not to be punished for speaking the truth as I see it.")

Some regret/sadness that they're this triggered and vitriolic, and for the tendency toward choosing the worst or straw-est interpretation at every point rather than taking the time to question their own responses and include nuance, but on the other hand, still appreciation for how this contributes to the overall health of the discussion by opening up new threads for debate and ensuring that there isn't an echo chamber (i.e. maybe it takes that level of aggression to accomplish the thing, and a gentler critique wouldn't be taken seriously enough?).

Significant disagreement with the choice to hijack the topic at hand to vent about things that are either mostly or completely unrelated, and make claims that are unsubstantiated or wildly inaccurate, and engage in some specious logic toward the end (e.g. ad hominem fallacy).

Hope to have some time later today to respond to the better points this raises.

Thanks for your contribution.

[Note: I've typed this comment without refreshing the page, and thus have not seen any of the other responses that may have cropped up in the past few hours, nor taken those responses into account in any way yet. I'm seeing only the original reply, here.]

Part 1 of ?

Repeating my thanks before heading into what will be a mix of concession and disagreement—I have qualms about the way you engaged with this post, but am grateful for the fact that you did engage, at all, rather than just staying quiet, and I want to support the core of that even as I complain about certain aspects of your chosen method.

I think your first paragraph had one clear point: "I, as a smart, perceptive person who sees things others often fail to see, found a lot of this viscerally upsetting, which is probably a sign that there are actual problems." I liked that you added this point, and I think it would've been stronger if you hadn't been so deliberately assholish with the rest of it. I'm going to take the core point seriously as I read further, and see if I can get a clear sense of what it is you see that I don't.

The comment about Ender's Game (paragraph 2) is a misunderstanding on your part, either deliberate or easy to clear up—there's no wargaming in the plan, there's no battle room, there are no other groups of people playacting as other armies. The aesthetic of Dragon Army was, in short: everyone is expected to keep their eyes open and act independently to do what seems right and sane in the moment. Groups should practice coordinating together to build trust and be capable of action-requiring-more-than-one-individual, but the assumption is that an army run by forty minds will trump an army run by one.

In paragraph 3, you make a valid point about the efficacy and usefulness of CFAR, which is indeed worth questioning, and the side you're holding down is not obviously wrong. It's a bit overwrought, given that the phrase "insistence on the validity of his experience as a CFAR instructor" is a clear strawman; I was almost as emphatic about the fact that I've written nerdy fanfic, so I think you were just looking for an opportunity to climb up on a soapbox? That being said, your point about interpersonal romance being a relevant and important factor matches my own intuition, and I wish you had appreciated the fact that I wanted to continue thinking carefully about correct solutions rather than just spam the first ideas that popped into my head.

In paragraph four, you make an entirely unfounded leap that is beneath the quality of what's expected from a poster on this forum. All of your "this suggests" are false handwaving, and I find the rest of your assertions generally laughable, given that there's only one person in this thread so far who's demonstrated deep antisocial behavior, and that you're hurling these insults from a position of anonymity. However, I'm going to continue to take things one paragraph at a time rather than assuming that I've seen your entire position as soon as I've got a mockable straw model, so we'll start fresh with your next point.

Hmmm. In the first sentence of paragraph 5, you and I seem to converge somewhat—we both agree that the Bay Area rationalist community is not living up to its promise, and has too few people doing good and impactful work. I'm glad to share this bit of world-model with you. I note that my idea for what to do about it—try a different sort of house/community—is just one possible strategy among many, and I'm curious if you have other concrete suggestions that you'd be willing to offer. I'm especially curious what you're actually doing, as you seem to have a sort of ... scathing dismissal? ... of everyone else, and I'd expect from your tone that you must be engaged in at least one concretely high-promise project (else it all smacks of rank hypocrisy). Would you be willing to detail a) what you're up to, or b) a few concrete proposals that you suspect are higher promise? At this point, it'd be hard to simply abandon the Dragon Army idea, but if a good enough alternative came along, I would take it. The point is not to be seen to be right, it's to actually make an impact.

I notice that the rest of that paragraph is basically off-topic. Without contributing to the off-topicness, I want to say that I do, indeed, find at least a couple of worthwhile points of agreement within it, but I think most of it is wrong, in addition to being somewhat morally reprehensible re: vicious attacks, and that you're overconfident in your assertions. If you'd like to shoot me a private message, I'd be happy to say where I agree and where I disagree.

Oh, interesting—paragraph six also begins with a claim I have a lot of sympathy for/agreement with. I don't hold it as strongly as you do, but I do think there's a lot of clear dysfunction and self-deception in the community, and I'd like to take steps to correct it. I don't know how to evaluate your claim that the best people are on the periphery (as I'm a weird mix of professionally central and socially somewhat distant), but again—if you'd like to make concrete recommendations about who I should talk to, or direct some of the people you hold in high esteem to comment on this thread, I suspect you're right about there being a lot of untapped value. I do note that Dragon Army is not actually pulling from the central or highest status people, but thus far looks to be made up of a lot of solid, normal, representative rationalists, so I think your claim about trying to delude people is straightforwardly false, as is your assumption that I don't see or don't want to see any warts and flaws. (I believe there are lots of people who will back me up on this, including some who will claim that I've been too hostile or critical. That's partially why I sympathize with the strength of your negativity.)

Part 2 of 2

Ah, paragraph seven contains the unword "cult," which I think you're using to say something, but I'd rather you just actually said the thing, instead of applying the empty, stretched, multi-interpretation label. Like, I think if you laid out specific, concrete objections, I and others could benefit from them, but just saying cult is lazy name-calling.

I do somewhat agree with your objections to the list of specific skills attained after a year. I had hoped that the large word DRAFT at the top, plus the repeated statements that the whole plan was to iterate, and that I didn't expect to be able to figure out the right stuff on the first try, would've clued you in to the fact that I, too, am aware that the list is inadequate. Do you have specific suggestions for replacements? Keep in mind, the hard problem is to balance things-that-will-be-generally-useful-for-a-medium-sized-group-of-people against the fact that everyone involved has their own specific career and expertise already. Part of the impetus here is social, part of it is becoming well-rounded, part of it is practicing the skill of gaining/improving skills, and all of that is trying to avoid skating into trivial irrelevancy. Got any ideas?

As a meta note, I think that people who cower behind anonymity don't deserve to make concrete claims about their skill sets without backing them up, so until further notice and on a policy level, I'm treating your claim that you meet 11 out of 14 criteria as a flat-out lie (despite its plausibility overall). You're currently nothing and nobody and have no skills; that will change as soon as you a) reveal yourself or b) demonstrate credibility under this pseudonym.

Your next attempt to strawman things takes a sub-point out of context and deliberately ignores the actual requirement being made, which was that people hold their beliefs and models with skepticism/realize that their internal experience does not represent absolute truth, and that they treat one another with a behaviorist's lens, using revealed preferences and past behavior as predictors, rather than relying on mental summations that may be false or straw. I'm curious whether, setting aside your mockery of a subpoint, you agree with that point.

Interestingly enough, I have reasonable credence in your two inferences. In my experience, members of this community do attempt to install norms to compensate for social failings (and do have a somewhat higher-than-average level of social ineptitude). And also, I think many people in this community are low-empathy and embody the bad side of individualism. However, unlike you, I see that a lot of people are trying damn hard to correct this, and I'm curious whether you think they should be written off for not being good enough already, or whether you have specific suggestions that differ from the ones already being tried. I note that a big part of what Dragon Army intends to do is just try a whole bunch of stuff (including stuff already known to work; there's no premium on novelty), and that I think data will be better than armchair ranting.

I suspect you haven't done much in the way of looking in the mirror when you type the words "repressed irritation, interpersonal drama, and general unpleasantness." Certainly you don't meet any of my standards for "how a decent person behaves." I'm going to try to avoid the fundamental attribution error here, though, and assume that we've hit some combination of a) a bad day, b) the problems of online communication, and c) you being unusually triggered or having run out of some important resources.

I'm not going to engage with the ad hominem attack at the end, which, in addition to being wrong as a tactic, also fails in specific. I think that if you compare yourself, who is suggesting suicide as a solution, with OSC, who is definitely wrong about a lot of things but has never gone so far as to claim a fellow human would be better off killing themselves, you'll note that you might be on the wrong side. I'd check my cap for a skull, at least in the context of today's mood.

For anyone else—I welcome calm, reasoned elaboration on any of the on-topic points this person made. When I went through blow-by-blow, there were fewer than I'd hoped, but there are true and valuable and important criticisms here, and I'm glad they've been added to the mix, and I wouldn't mind further discussion of them.

This seems similar to Leverage in a lot of ways. It seems like it would be really instructive to contrast your plan with Leverage's plan - as initially intended, and as executed - to see what you plan to invest in that they aren't, what you're not doing that they are, and costs and benefits of those differences.

Other contrasting case studies might also add clarity:

  • Esalen
  • kibbutzim
  • the old Singularity Institute house
  • residential colleges
  • fraternities
  • Buddhist monasteries
  • Christian monasteries
  • actual armies
  • actual paramilitary organizations / militias
  • Sea Org

It probably makes sense to 64/4 these with rough sketches from memory/stereotypes/Wikipedia-ing before bothering to do any time-intensive research.

I have tried similar things.

My strongest recommendation is to beware of internal power struggles. Even if you are fully understood to be in charge, if everyone under you is in a state of emotional mutiny, you WILL become compromised, and you WILL make mistakes, and those mistakes WILL be used to justify further emotional mutiny. This will spiral until you lose everything.

Moreso, some percentage of your trusted minions WILL undergo emotional mutiny. They will discover that they'd rather be somewhere else, doing something else. They'll discover that there are people other than you they'd like in charge of their lives. They will discover that they don't trust you as much as they thought they did. Even if you pick the best people -- hell, ESPECIALLY if you pick the best people, because the best people will have other people vying for their attention, seeking to undermine you from without.

For the next three months, I will embark on my own experiment of living in a high-standards high-group-activity environment. Specifically, a Buddhist temple.

The temple has an even tighter schedule. All residents wake up together at 5 am and go to sleep together at 10 pm. The rest is meditation, study and work, with 4 hours of free time. The weekends are free, so it adds up to being told what to do for 85 hours per week.

Over the years, I have stayed there six times for a week. The first days are usually a fight to adjust to the lower standards of living (the unpleasant valley). As the days go by, I become increasingly energized and sharp. When I leave, I'm in the best state I can be. Not even a CFAR workshop measures up to how much I upgrade in such a short time. And it's not the meditation. I've gone for days without really meditating and I would still upgrade.

This has led me to believe that something about our individualist style of living is profoundly wrong, at least for some people. Seems like a solution to many of our problems lies in collectivism. Think mental health, akrasia, huffelpuff virtue, etc.

I am really interested in how this is going to fly. Please do post updates. I would also love to share my perspective. I think I'll have some interesting data.

Caveat/skull: The obvious problem is people attempting to game the system—they notice that ten pushups is way easier than doing the diligent work required to show up on time 95 times out of 100.

Not a full solution, but gesturing in a direction that you might find useful: build the system in such a way that gaming it is encouraged and useful, and that the punishments are somehow self-balancing.

E.g. if the punishment is "do some chores", somebody who figures out that doing the chores is easier than their other obligations is at least clearing the list of all the chores that need to be done. If they run out of chores to do, new tasks can be added to the list, and they can choose whether doing them is still worth it.

I'm here kinda reminded of the evolution of pen'n'paper RPGs, which originally had disadvantages you could buy during character creation that made you more powerful in exchange; of course people would munchkin by "forgetting" the disadvantages during play. Newer games got past that by making disadvantages give you zero points during character creation (or even cost!), and instead had them award benefits if you roleplayed them during actual game. In general, games have gotten the better the more they have built "trying to munchkin the rules, automatically leads you to play the game more like it was designed to be played" as a fundamental game design principle.

Not sure of how to do the "self-balancing costs" thing, but I am reminded of the bidding systems some houses have for chores, where you offer money for doing some task and if someone else finds the offered amount of money more valuable than the pain of doing the chore they do it; otherwise you do it yourself.

I think the troll obliquely raised on good point with their criticism of the example for Rule 6:

For example, a Dragon who has been having trouble getting to sleep but has never informed the other Dragons that their actions are keeping them awake will agree that their anger and frustration, while valid internally, may not fairly be vented on those other Dragons, who were never given a chance to correct their behavior

Let me pose a question to the reader of my comment: would you rather live in a house where you have to constantly verbally ask the other residents to stop doing things that they could have reasonably foreseen would bother you, or would you rather live in a house where people actually used reasonable expectations of what other people want to guide their behavior and therefore acted in a way that preempted causing other people irritation?

Treating something like your sleep disturbances as your responsibility is fine if e.g. you (like me) have lots of trouble falling asleep and something like people whispering 15 metres from your room is keeping you from falling asleep. In that case, those people are doing everything right and really don't know that they're hurting you. It is unreasonable to get angry at them if you haven't explained to them why their behaviour is bad for you.

Sometimes it's less clear though. I sometimes use the microwave after midnight. I know that the microwave can be heard in my room and in my room mate's room. When I use the microwave and think he might be asleep, I stop it before the timer finishes and it beeps loudly. There's not much excuse to wait for my room mate to specifically request that I do this; I'm more than capable of figuring out a) the microwave beeping at the end is loud and the sort of thing that can disrupt sleep and b) there's a way I can stop that from happening. It does show some failure of consideration if I were to shrug off the potential inconvenience that the microwave could present for my room mate for the slight benefit of not having to watch the microwave.

This points to one of the failure modes of Tell Culture, where people use it as an excuse to stop doing any thinking about how their actions can affect other people. This actually suggests that one potential house experimental norm could be something like "before making an action that might effect another Dragon, pause and consider how it might effective them and if the effect will be a net positive."

What this all comes down to for me is that it seems unfair to ask people to assume goodwill without also asking them to always attempt to act with goodwill.

This is a neat idea!

I expect it to fail. And I kind of wish you wouldn't try: I give maybe a 1/4 chance this fails sufficiently dramatically and publicly that I become less willing to be associated with the community because people start associating it with that failure.

In particular, here is what I expect to happen (~60% confidence it goes down something like this):

  • Someone will start regularly defecting within the first three months. Maybe they don't keep up with their chores, maybe they skip meetings, maybe they fail to get along with someone and they fight, maybe they persist in doing something they've been asked repeatedly not to do, maybe they chafe under your leadership and start practicing malicious compliance. I don't expect intentional defection so much as executive dysfunction, to be clear, but it has the same effect either way.

  • You, personally, will lack the force of character or charisma to fix it. (I haven't met you in person, so this might be way off; I'm just going off your writing and those of your pictures on Facebook I can see. But it takes an extraordinarily good manager to deal with this problem, and there's nothing in your bio which implies you are one.) You also, not being legally their military superior, won't have any actually worthwhile carrots or sticks to offer - this is the core problem, as I see it, that you lack the legal authority to properly enforce anything. Also, rationalists are weird, and often don't respond that well to the usual incentives.

  • The rest of the house will lose confidence in your leadership as a consequence.

  • Bad things. I don't actually know what happens at this step - people move out, or just stop playing by your rules and it reverts to a standard if unusually dysfunctional group house, or what.

Unfortunately I don't have fixes to offer you here, other than "try to figure out an enforcement mechanism which will work even on rationalists and which you can legally carry out". I can't think of such an enforcement mechanism, but haven't even put a full five minutes into it. Maybe you already have one in mind and I've missed it. To be clear, I don't think "ostracism" will be remotely sufficient, because of the aforementioned weirdness and the fact that people will have other friends to fall back on. (I guess you could only invite people without other friends, or require them to cut off contact with said friends, but that is a terrible idea.) I also want to say that I've seen a number of other communities either fail or struggle due to lack of an explicitly specified and actually effective enforcement mechanism for their rules.


Tiny side note: I think it's very important that members have regular one-on-one meetings with someone other than you, in case their problems are problems with you which they aren't willing to bring up to your face.

Praise: The focus on actually doing a thing is great.

Criticism: Most of this post was about methods the house will have, why these are OK, etc. Comparatively little was about what the house is going to used to accomplish outside itself. This seems worth putting much more up-front thought into given how much of the point is to make a house that can actually do a thing. Probably your methods and selection criteria are not very well-calibrated for whatever project will turn out to be best - human coordination is much easier when you're coordinating about something in particular.

Obviously you will not know everything perfectly in advance no matter how much planning you do - but planning to accomplish a particular thing is very qualitatively different from planning to accomplish things in general.

Praise: A lot of the details on how to live together well (group exercise, food, time explicitly set aside for checking in) seem really good. If step 1 is just "learn to live well together," that is itself a respectable project, and one most of the Rationalists have failed at. Probably most attempts at this fail, we only observe the old communes that didn't fall apart.

I couldn't comment on the linked Medium article, so I'd like to say that, for many students, particularly middle and high school students, it is simply not true that they are in class voluntarily. I was routinely threatened with dire consequences if I didn't go to school, and attempts to remain at home and refuse to go were met with physical force - I was literally pulled out of my bed and taken to the car or bus. School is about as voluntary as the military draft.

Have you ever lived under obedience? This is often considered a prerequisite for holding command of e.g. a monastery.

This post puts me maybe 50% the way to thinking this is a good idea from my previous position.

My largest qualm about this is well-represented by a pattern you seem to show, which starts with saying "Taking care of yourself always comes first, respect yourself", then getting people to actually act on that in simple, low-risk low-involvement contexts, and assuming that means they'll actually be able to do it when it matters. People can show all the signs of accepting a constructed social norm when that norm is introduced, without that meaningfully implying that they'll use it when push comes to shove. Think about how people act when actual conflicts with large fight/flight/freeze responses interact with self-care norms. I suspect some typical-mind, as my model of you is better at that than most people. I think it depends on what "running on spite" cashes out to. This is kind of a known skull, but I think the proposed solution of check-ins is probably insufficient.

My other big concern is what comments like your reply to Peter here imply about your models and implicit relationship to the project. In this comment, you say you'll revise something, but I pretty strongly anticipate you still wanting people to do the thing the original wording implied. This seems to defuse criticism in dangerous ways, by giving other people the impression that you're updating not just the charter, but your aesthetics. Frankly, you don't seem at all likely to revise your aesthetics. And those, ultimately, determine the true rules.

To summarize the nature of my issues here in a few words: aesthetic intuitions have huge amounts of inertia and can't be treated like normal policy positions, and people's self-care abilities (and stress-noticing abiities) cannot be trusted in high-stress environments, even under light to moderate testing.

-Olivia

"roughly 90 hours a month (~1.5hr/day plus occasional weekend activities)" My math says that those weekend activities total the 1.5 hours every day has and also 10 additional hours every weekend.

"Any Dragon who leaves during the experiment is responsible for continuing to pay their share of the lease/utilities/house fund, unless and until they have found a replacement person the house considers acceptable, or have found three potential viable replacement candidates and had each one rejected. After six months, should the experiment dissolve, the house will revert to being simply a house, and people will bear the normal responsibility of "keep paying until you've found your replacement." "

It seems counterproductive to have people who have left the experiment living in the same house until they are replaced. Exit terms such as 'two months notice, or less if a suitable replacement can be found or otherwise agreed' are less coercive.